Nick Macer's latest Mexico trip pictures

[Paul S]

http://www.growingontheedge.net/viewtopic.php?t=2937

Nick has just posted pictures of his latest visit to Mexico - and these have to be the best series of habitat pictures I have ever seen of some of the greatest botanical treasures to be found in Mexico.

I am still speechless!

[Allen Repashy]

Those A. ovatafolia specimens are fabulous! Some of them look a lot like the specimen that Kelly Griffin showed in his talk at the CSSA convention. He said it was several hundred miles out of the normal range for the species, but that it looked more like it than not. The one with the crinkles in the leaves is a really striking individual.

Why isn't Nick a member here at Xeric World? I would love to get some comments from him on those plants!

Hint Hint....

Allen

[Ron]

As usual...excellent Paul!

-Ron-

[Nick PGP]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Those A. ovatafolia specimens are fabulous! Some of them look a lot like the specimen that Kelly Griffin showed in his talk at the CSSA convention. He said it was several hundred miles out of the normal range for the species, but that it looked more like it than not. The one with the crinkles in the leaves is a really striking individual.

Why isn't Nick a member here at Xeric World? I would love to get some comments from him on those plants!

Hint Hint....

Allen

Hello, I've just turned up...

Allen, most of the pictures I think you're referring to are pure A. ovatifolia taken at the type locaility. The one with the valleculate (crinkled) leaves etc etc.

The shots at the bottom of the post, with my girlfriend for scale are the same thing Kelly found recently, but not in the exact same place. This appears to be akin to A. ovatifolia, but as Kelly says it is much further south. Visually they are not quite right compared to the plants further north, even taking into consideration the huge variability that exists within the A. ovatifolia population. They may end up being a southern population of slightly different form or perhaps something new, but for now I'm calling them A. aff. ovatifolia.

[Allen Repashy]

While we are on the topic of integrades with the A. gentryi x A. montana thread...... I am looking at these photo's of Nick's (inserted and linked to for reference) and the ones I saw that Kelly took...... and was just wondering if anyone else see's what looks like A. parrasana in this plant... Do A. parrasana and A. ovatafolia occur sympatrically where these plants were found?

[agavegreg]

Nice observation Allen! I visited those plants on this trip again and took a closer look at them, and have the same thought. The two species do not occur together, but I do have some thoughts on these plants.

It is possible that in years past (more than a couple), the ranges of the two did overlap, and have receded over time. I did find one of the plants with young fruits with flower remnants attached, and if and when I get the specimens back from USDA, will take a look at the measurements.

Greg

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Greg,

So if this were indeed the case........ If they were an integrade population that survived the test of time in a locality, while the two species that hybridized to create them receded in range out of the area...... is this an argument for the definition of a species?

What I am saying is, as I understand evolution, this is how species are created is it not.... a combination of genetics that allows one plant to survive where others do not..... Whether this variation is a a mutation within a species, or created by the hybridization of two species, is irrelevant is it not?

I am just wondering if DNA for example showed that indeed they were mapped right between the two species, does the fact that they no longer overlap in range make them a species, or just a surviving hybrid population.

I am just trying to stirr the pot a little because this topic truly is fascinating to me.

[Zeroscraper]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Hi Greg,

So if this were indeed the case........ If they were an integrade population that survived the test of time in a locality, while the two species that hybridized to create them receded in range out of the area...... is this an argument for the definition of a species?

What I am saying is, as I understand evolution, this is how species are created is it not.... a combination of genetics that allows one plant to survive where others do not..... Whether this variation is a a mutation within a species, or created by the hybridization of two species, is irrelevant is it not?

I am just wondering if DNA for example showed that indeed they were mapped right between the two species, does the fact that they no longer overlap in range make them a species, or just a surviving hybrid population.

I am just trying to stirr the pot a little because this topic truly is fascinating to me.

Elsewhere I've mentioned A. gracilipes as an example of something like that (I've probably discussed this species on other forums enough to annoy some people) - morphologically it has hybrid written all over it, but wit the peculiarities that it blooms months later than either parent, occurs 100 miles north of the range of one of them, and (as far as I have seen) is rare and quite isolated... i.e. far less prolific than either parent... throughout its range.

[Paul S]

An interesting idea. I guess you could equally apply this to other plants, too. Widespread through the bits of Tamaulipas and Nuevo Leon I have been through are plants that Rich Travis described to me as protamericana x scabra intergrades. Yet I would have been hard pushed to identify any actual scabra nearby - we did see it near Doctor Arroyo but that is the other side of a mountain. Where these intergrades differ, I suppose, is that they don't seem to have any stability in terms of thier appearance - they vary immensely with each little clsuter of plants. Maybe a bit closer in terms of evolutionary changes?

I suppose, taking a further step, you could go back to the montana/gentryi thing - they are obviously close so maybe they haven't finished evolving yet.

And as for the marginatae around there....

[agavegreg]

Hi Paul,

My thoughts exactly on the A. montana/gentryi question as well as some other species complexes. For example, the parrasana/ovatifolia question concerning the plants south of Monterrey. FO 76/titanota/horrida. all the A. parryi including ssp. neomexicana, etc.

The genus Agave is considered a young genus and is probably in a state of rapid (for plants) speciation and that's why we see so many intermediates and groups being difficult to sort out.

Greg

[Fred, SC]

This was one of the best, if not the best photo journeys I have ever seen. And to see the species albopilosa in habitat was awesome. The wintering Monarchs(mariposa monarca) was superb.
I am a retired teaacher, and one year my class of 4th graders had "Projecto Mariposa" where we corresponded in Spanish with children at a school in Michoacon. We drew and colored butterflies and they were displayed in the Museo de los Ninos in Mexico City. We watched the daily progression of the butterflies from Mexico to Cox's Creek, Kentucky. Many schools across Mexico and the US were involved. When they first appeared in out school yard we reported it to the internet site. Each school did this and we watched their spring migration by map on the computer. It was a great lesson in International Co-operation and Geography as well as language.They returned oru butterflies with a letter in English to my students. The students got a great deal out of this. We bought a butterfly kit and hatched our own butterfly to release a week or two later. The kids thoroughly loved this lesson.

[Nick PGP]

Glad you liked the shots Fred. I'll be putting up another photo-travelogue on the same forum very soon, but this time on N Vietnam, so no succulents I'm afraid.

Sounds like a great project you had going with the kids there. If we did that sort of thing when I was at school I might have turned up more often...

[cycadjungle]

Glad you liked the shots Fred. I'll be putting up another photo-travelogue on the same forum very soon, but this time on N Vietnam, so no succulents I'm afraid.

"

Did you get a chance to see any of the north Vietnam cycads while you were there? That is micholitzii and multipinnata country up near the northen border.

[Nick PGP]

To be honest I wasn't looking for any. From what I read C. micholitzii is not native in the north, being restricted to the central highlands and Laos. We weren't that far from C. multipinnata but would have required a major detour and an exact locality!

I had heard of various new species described from Vietnam. Do you have further details?

[RAFAMONTOSA]

Nice post Nick!!!

[cycadjungle]

I don't keep up with every detail regarding Cycas species because to me, many look the same and also, here in Florida, the Asian scale has destroyed about a billion $s worth of sagos in the last 10 years. Most of them don't look impressive, and I wouldn't want to invest in any just for sale because around here, nobody will buy them. I have limited my collection as much as possible to other species that don't get the scale. However, I have to admit a liking for all the split leaflet cycas species. I have collections of breeding micholitziis and what might be my new favorite cycad, Cycas debaoensis. I also have plants of C. bifida, and the plants known as C. mulitfrondis (even though they are not considered a true species)
As far as information on all the VN Cycas species, I can't tell you much, but I do know where to find that information. Roy Osbourne wrote a really nice looking book with lots of pictures just on the Cycas of VN. He really needs to be getting rid of them and has made them as cheap as $10 if you buy 5 at a time. I do not have that book yet, so I can't quote you any of the information, but if you are one of the people who are able to travel to such places, it may be a very helpfull book. For that matter, if you go back, you could try to contact someone like Heip (from the book) and he might be able to go out and show you plants.
I can tell you though that micholitziis are in NVN on the border. The Montgomery BC had an expedition to that area and found the plants and brought back material about 15 years ago.

[Nick PGP]

Originally Posted by cycadjungle

I don't keep up with every detail regarding Cycas species because to me, many look the same and also, here in Florida, the Asian scale has destroyed about a billion $s worth of sagos in the last 10 years. Most of them don't look impressive, and I wouldn't want to invest in any just for sale because around here, nobody will buy them. I have limited my collection as much as possible to other species that don't get the scale. However, I have to admit a liking for all the split leaflet cycas species. I have collections of breeding micholitziis and what might be my new favorite cycad, Cycas debaoensis. I also have plants of C. bifida, and the plants known as C. mulitfrondis (even though they are not considered a true species)
As far as information on all the VN Cycas species, I can't tell you much, but I do know where to find that information. Roy Osbourne wrote a really nice looking book with lots of pictures just on the Cycas of VN. He really needs to be getting rid of them and has made them as cheap as $10 if you buy 5 at a time. I do not have that book yet, so I can't quote you any of the information, but if you are one of the people who are able to travel to such places, it may be a very helpfull book. For that matter, if you go back, you could try to contact someone like Heip (from the book) and he might be able to go out and show you plants.
I can tell you though that micholitziis are in NVN on the border. The Montgomery BC had an expedition to that area and found the plants and brought back material about 15 years ago.

Many thanks for the info. Cycads aren't exactly 'big' in the UK for obvious reasons and I grow just one species, but I do like to see them wild if I can (I like to see anything wild). I'll be purchasing that book and we'll see where it takes me...

We were poking around some pretty obscure places in NVN and mean to again, so may even come across something interesting in future. The only Cycas we saw were cultivated in peoples gardens, but at one point, whilst slipping and sliding down a near vertical mountain track with severe knee pain from a 5000ft descent, we thought we'd come across something amazing, only to find on closer inspection it was a giant Blechnum with fronds to 8ft high.

[cycadjungle]

I have an internet friend that lives in London that has about 40+ species growing, so he tells me about all the problems he has with growing the cycads. Between the cold and the lack of sun in the winter, he has his work cut out for him, but he really enjoys playing with them.
These don't come from VN, but I thought I would add a photo of my favorite cycas species, Cycas debaoensis. They grow REAL fast with the right conditions. The one in the picture is actually a small plant with leaves that are about 3 to 4 feet long. This same plant is now pushing single leaves that are just over 11 feet long now. It turns into a truly magnificent plant, even if you aren't totally into cycads.

[Nick PGP]

It's a beautiful thing, for sure.