Agave not patonii minima

[Tim Harvey]

As requested, here are a couple of shots of this no-longer miniature plant. The leaves are 36" from tip to base. I keep hoping it will flower and die! The last shot shows a younger plant (same clone) with the more recognisable pups around the base. I'll have to re-plant my variegated form in the ground now to see what happens.

T

[rnixon]

Hey Tim,

Apologies for going off topic but that looks like a really nice Fouq. purpusii on the left hand side of the first photo. Care to share any shots of that?

In the appropriate sub-forum, of course !

[Nick PGP]

What you have there Tim is a beautiful A. applanata. I don't know why you are wishing death on it; I think it's a great species! It will get bigger than that too.

[Tim Harvey]

Bigger!? Aaaaaargh! No!!!!!

T

[agavegreg]

You got that as Agave patonii var. minima?

[Tim Harvey]

Yes, I did. I've seen many similar, too. The last picture shows the immature pups around a larger, very different looking parent.

I presume the variegates will get as big?

http://www.agaves.nl/Articles/E_Agave%20applanata.htm


T

[Allen Repashy]

C&J has some interesting large variegated subjects that are probably 14" in diameter that seem to follow the applanata growth habit and could very well be large specimens of this clone. I will have to snap a pic next time I go. I think Kelly might have a pic of this plant.

[Tim Harvey]

Mine are around that size, but back in pots ... soon to be rectified!

T

[agavegreg]

Thanks Tim,

When I first saw mature A. applanata near Tulancingo, Hidalgo, the pups looked almost exactly like what I knew as "A. patonii" (A. patonii 'compacta', and all the other names). I had never seen any of the "A. patonii" get that size in cultivation though.

[Brian Kemble]

In Veracruz last November, Miguel Chazaro took Kelly Griffin and I to see a population of A. applanata near the VC/Puebla border. I have long suspected that "patonii minima" is in fact applanata (it certainly is not patonii, which is a synonym of parryi), so I was curious to see what this applanata population looked like. When we got there, the plants were so large (over 6 feet on the biggest ones) and the leaves so sword-like that I doubted that this would prove to be the same sp. as the "patonii dwarf". But just before we got ready to leave, someone pointed out that there were lots of tiny plants around the big ones (I assumed they were offsets, but should have checked on the possibility that they were seedlings; at any rate, they were only within a couple of feet of the big plants). These little ones were a dead-ringer for "patonii dwarf", and Miguel commented that a European friend who had studied applanata commented that it was dimorphic, persisting as a chunky little plant for many years before bolting and taking on its mature form, which looks very different. Gentry also comments on this dimorphic aspect of applanata, saying that "the short stiff compact leaves in the juvenile and middle stages of growth resemble leaves of the Parryanae". Trelease remarked of A. applanata that it is "greatly misunderstood because of the difference between juvenile, moderately developed, and mature plants."

[agavegreg]

Allen,

Did you ever get any pictures of the variegated ones at C&J?

[Allen Repashy]

I think Kelly has some that he took when we were there.. I definitely concur that it really does seem to be the best description of this plant. Maybe Kelly will chime in with those pics but those plants at C&J seem to be right between the two forms.

Allen

[Kelly Griffin]

I concur with Brian and would like to hear from others that think differently.

[Matt Maggio]

This is a picture of my seed grown Agave applanata. The seed was purchased from Mesa Garden, and was reportedly collected from El Limon, Veracruz. As with the others in the same batch, it shows no sign of dwarfing. Neither does its pup. Could be an ecotype thing.

[agavegreg]

Matt, Gentry states that, in Durango, A. applanata shows introgression with A. durangensis, so it would not be unheard of for it to mix genes with another agave in other parts of its range. Perhaps somebody who has been to El Limon can tell us if there are other species growing in proximity to A. applanata at that spot.

[Allen Repashy]

I grew a bunch of seed from the same source as Matt and they look the same as his..... but they don't really look like A. applanata at all, so possibly the label's got mixed up, or as Greg says, they could be integrades with another species.

[Matt Maggio]

Just giving a mental overview of the ones in my batch, I can see A. durangensis peeking through. My only comparison were the durangensis I saw at Greg's place a few years ago.

[Nick PGP]

I totally agree with Brian. I've seen A. applanata wild in a few places, including near Tulancingo, Hidalgo, and it was there that I first bumped into a few immature plants with no adults in the immediate vicinity. Next time I was through that way I stopped off and found some full size adults nearby, and a fair few intermediates (mostly being grubbed out by the local cattle farmer). The difference between the forms is stark. Also, all the intermediates I saw were considerably smaller than the adult stage, suggesting that they do indeed bolt when they're ready.

Did yours mature rapidly Tim?

Matt - The El Limon plants are nowhere near the area that Gentry described the possible A. applanata x A. durangensis (hundreds of miles away) and A. durangensis doesn't occur at El Limon, so there is another explanation (somewhere out there) for the dodgy Mesa Garden seed.

Incidentally, I've been to the area where Gentry described those intermediates, but could only find A. durangensis, looking typical.


Nr Tulancingo, Hidalgo. Juveniles, not so many inches tall...




...and a juicy big mama with her flock of babes beneath.

[Tim Harvey]

Nick, not quite sure what you mean by 'mature rapidly'. I put them in the ground quite a while ago and my memory is not that good.

T

[Nick PGP]

Tim - I was just trying to establish whether or not they hang around in the juvenile state, at a relatively small size for quite a time, before rapidly becoming adult. Or have you seen a steady increase with your plant over the years? Others experience would suggest the former...

[agavegreg]

My A. applanata pup collected from near Tulancingo in 2001 has grown steadily since being put in the ground about 5 years ago, and now stands at about 30" tall by 50" across from leaf tip to leaf tip. Meanwhile, the same size Agave "parryi minima" did not grow much, only reaching about 7" tall by 10" across before finally rotting this past summer.

In 2007, Brian, Rob, Chad and I saw a flowering plant that looked much like Agave "parryi minima" that was only about 18" tall by 24" across, not nearly the giant that A. applanata becomes before it flowers. Also, on Cerro Zamorano in 2006 we saw a long flowered out plant of Agave "parryi minima" that was about the same size as the one just mentioned. The thing in cultivation that we call Agave "parryi minima" supposedly came from the Cerro Zamorano, and although they look the same as A. applanata as young plants, did not seem to morph into the large A. applanata from Hidalgo, Puebla and Veracruz. Two different forms or subspecies perhaps? But then, how to explain Tim's plant undergoing the metamorphosis? Me thinks a Mexcellent adventure is called for.

[rpw]

Originally Posted by agavegreg

...Meanwhile, the same size Agave "parryi minima" did not grow much, only reaching about 7" tall by 10" across before finally rotting this past summer....

And I thought my wet climate was the problem...
I find this plant difficult to keep for any period of time here in southern Louisiana...
Peyton

[Brian Kemble]

Matt, your seedlings from the Mesa Garden seed (from El Limon) are mystifying to me. The Agave which is abundant at El Limon is Agave horrida ssp. perotensis (called A. obscura in Gentry), and this looks nothing like your seedling. I saw A. applanata not too far north of there, though not at El Limon itself, but as you say your seedling does not really look like applanata. My best guess would be that seed batches got mixed up.
Greg has a good point that we have seen A. applanata ("patonii minima") at 2 localities where plants flowered while still of modest size, without ever progressing to the long sword-like leaves of the mature form of applanata. These sites were near Cerro Zamorano in Queretaro and northwest of there near San Luis de la Paz in Guanajuato. This is another mystery in need of a solution.

[Matt Maggio]

Fascinating... wondering what I have then???? I didn't sow anything at the time which could have been mismatched. Why would MG botch Allen's seed order in the same fashion? Probably a catalog error, but hopefully something more mysterious. Oh joy, I've never been more excited about this batch... and I'd already sent half to the green waste

[Allen Repashy]

It is quite possible that the error is not on Mesa's side, but the side of the collector. If they were collected by Simcock (spelling) on his whirlwind trip, I have heard that quit a bit of the seed that came in from him at that time of other species didn't come up a expected either.

Allen