Agave marmorata or gigantensis?

[Matt Maggio]

Hey All,

I've been suspecting that the plant sold as "Agave marmorata" at Rancho S. and marketed by Euro American as Agave marmorata 'Turtle teeth' (sounds corny) is really A. gigantensis from Baja Sur. Here I have photos of the plant from Rancho (large), A. marmorata from the Sierra Mixteca (medium), and a young A. giganentis.

Kelly: I'm curious as to the origin of the plant from Rancho...

The plant from Rancho doesn't fit Gentry's description of marmorata, and more closely resembles his description of gigantensis... maybe his ghost can help me out:confused For example, gigantensis has corneous leaf margins towards the leaf tip, as does the suspected plant, but marmorata does not.

Any thoughts?

Matt

[Aledlheaext]

I have a A. marmorata that I acquired 2 years ago and been neglected in my yard until now Perhaps this is the real one? See attachment. LB

[Matt Maggio]

... looks like marmorata for sure.

[Steve Steward]

Matt, you larger plants look like the gigantensis that I grow, the smaller plant doesn't to me. Even my young gigantensis are fairly glaucus and look pretty much like mature plants. I haven't dealt with too many marmorata, so I can't say much there.

Steve

[Paul S]

Agave marmorata has a skin like coarse sandpaper - really scabrous. I don't think gigantensis does?

[Matt Maggio]

With a little more sun that young plant would be more glaucous.

Yes, compared to marmorata, gigantensis is relatively glabrous. My large plant is quite smooth.

[agavegreg]

I too have long wondered about that plant from Soledad that is marketed as A. marmorata. It is very smooth, and looks nothing like either the blue, desert form found around Tehuacan or the greener form found higher up in the mountains elsewhere in Oaxaca. I don't know it's origin, and would be curious also.

Lina's plants are definitely the xeric form of A. marmorata.

Greg

[Paul S]

Obligatory habitat shots! Nice Yucca mixtecana in the background, too.

[Nick PGP]

Matt, your large R. Soledad plant very closely resembles the only plant i have of A. gigantensis, which is a similar size. In fact, if we were doing a 'blind' ID on a photo of it I would still have said A. gigantensis.

[Matt Maggio]

Another thing... I've seen one of these suspected agaves flower in a landscape, and it doesn't quite resemble the look of marmorata inflorescences I've seen photographed.

[Kelly Griffin]

On this I agree with Matt. I am not in on this or turtle teeth which I believe are the same clone.

I collected seed of two forms of gigantensis (both were sold at the Nursery) one for was looking like something between this and sobria the other more conforming.

I also collected marmorata seed in more than a few locations. Puebla, Guerrero etc. I would even put forth that Agave valenziana from Jalisco is a really big form of this species (without proof of course!) There have been some strange forms of both species that have shown up.

Anyway one was selected and cloned. I can see how this could happen. Flowers don't lie usually unless you are talking haworthias! It is an interesting form.

Kelly

[GermanStar]

Having just returned from the DBG, I came across an A. gigantensis, it's very smooth, the same word Gentry used as a descriptor. AFAIK, the plant marketed as "turtle teeth" has a very rough texture, at least mine does. I don't know what it is, or whether we're dealing with more than one plant here, but mine cannot be A. gigantensis. It doesn't look much like any A. marmorata pics I've seen either, a superficial resemblance at best. Any additional insights, or is this one still in the twilight zone?

[GermanStar]

More on this, for the evidence file. My plant was 3 weeks in the ground when the killer Feb cold snap hit. Three consecutive days sub-freezing, two in the low 20s or colder. According to Gentry, my plant should be dead; instead, it is thriving, growing at a nice clip and not a nick from a cold snap that all but killed a Cleistocactus not 10' away, and did kill a nice grouping of A. murpheyi a couple doors down.

Also, Gentry describes A. marmorata as "scabrous", AFAIK, the only other Agave he assigned that descriptor to is A. scabra, so I would expect a similar feel. Instead, it feels more like A. colorata, rough but not that rough. The descriptor applied to A. colorata is "asperous". Can these terms be used synonymously (one cannot help but notice the A. scabra/aspirrima name change), or is that a legitimate point of contention? To you folks who have genuine A. marmorata, does it feel like A. aspirrima?

I may be picking nits with my second point, but the first seems a genuine concern. Also, A. marmorata terminal spine seems far too short, 5-7 cm is what I'm looking at. Is Gentry overstating the plant's tenderness, or can A. marmorata shake off 20°F two nights running, like fleas off a dog's back? Is A. sobria a more reasonable possibility?

[Paul S]

I often wondered what the difference was between scabrous and asperous, if any.... anyway, the Agave marmorata I have seen in habitat have been REALLY rough textured - as rough or rougher than scabra. Or asperrima

[GermanStar]

More info for the stew pot, in case anyone else is still interested in pursuing an ID. Today, I stumbled across a look-alike for my plant, so it appears this plant comes in two versions. Mine is blue and asperous, the look-alikes I saw at B&B Cactus today are green and silky smooth. Also, while this smooth-skinned imposter features impressive single and double dentition, the turtle-teeth aren't quite as turtley as the rough, blue guy. From 15' away, the plants look nearly identical.

[GermanStar]

Alright, still trying to sort this out.

First, there are definitely two different plants being discussed here, one (the green, smooth one) seems to be A. gigantensis, the origins of the other (the blue, asperous one) seem a bit more mysterious. Has anyone considered A. zebra or an A. zebra hybrid? It certainly fits A. zebra at least as well as A. marmorata, perhaps better. Terminal spine, hardiness, color, general leaf shape and texture all fit A. zebra. Marginal spines and rigidity do not, but then they don't fit A. marmorata either. Granted, the plant doesn't look quite like any A. zebra I've seen, but it is just about in the ballpark...

Does anyone else have this plant? They are absolutely swarming the Valley here.

[Kelly Griffin]

Ok I think we need to address the it looks different thing. This plant is gigantensis (it came from RSN) The only thing it could be is gigantensis or marmorata (as it was first incorrectly labeled) the flower is gigantensis.

Speculation in is completely understandable but not needed. Leaf morphology is almost meaningless. Look at the pictures of zebra and avellandens they can have fantastic stipes and teeth but just because they do not does not make them not that species. There are many pedestrian looking clones of these two species floating around. We have several clones of these that are other worldly.

We need to broaden our concept of species when looking at these things.

For the longest time I have been trying to convince people of this and still it is a subject visited often.

Look at Agave titanota.......you could name ten plants here (incorrectly of course) but who would know if not for seeing them in the wild and growing them.

Best to all

Kelly G

[GermanStar]

OK, but there are two different plants. Or are you saying that both the smooth, green version and the asperous, blue version are the same, thus both A. gigantensis?

[Kelly Griffin]

In the top picture the smaller plant is marmorata the other one with the unusual markings is the clone of gigantensis.

If I might add, most marmoratas are rough to the touch but I have not seen that trait alone listed as an always that way in defining the species. I think it would be like saying eskimos are short.