Is Agave 'Blue Glow' one of Kelly's hybrids?

[juper]

Hi everybody,
Hope you all doing well...
Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if Agave 'Blue Glow' is one of Kelly's hybrid?
Thank you in advance for your kind responses.

[randyfb]

Hi Juper,
Very curious to see a good answer to your inquiry regarding Agave 'Blue Glow'. I first got this plant in 2005 from John Trager at the Huntington Botanic Garden with the HBG printed label that read:
"Agave 'Blue Glow'
HBG 89058 ex Serra Gardens 10/97 Agave shawii hybrid? Syn A ‘Jose’ / K. Griffin. Compact symmetrical bluish rosettes to 1’. Smooth chestnut colored leaf margins."

I have since inquired with Kelly who told me that he did not think the plant has any Agave shawii in it but instead noted that Agave ocahui was "involved" and that it was a Rancho Soledad original. In our website listing we included much of this information and at first attributed this plant to Kelly. I have since received comments back that claimed he wasn't the originator and so have added that some now dispute this notion. I would love to get to the bottom of this mystery and to find out who is the "Jose" noted on the Huntington's tag and whether this plant may have originated at Serra Gardens and not Rancho Soledad.
Regards,
Randy Baldwin
San Marcos Growers

[Allen Repashy]

I just spoke briefly with Kelly on the phone this morning and he said he will login and respond as soon as he gets time to sit at the computer and crack a beer.

He did bring a few things to light..... 'Jose' he said is Jose Pfaffer, ex employee from 'Tropic World' and also my source for the Agave 'Royal Spine' .

Anyways, I bought a plant from Tropic World that was labeled as Agave 'Red Margin' (attenuata x shawii') This plant does look very similar to Agave 'Blue Glow', but is definitely different. It has a bit of a wider leaf that isn't as rigid, and it is a little more open.

As with the Agave 'Royal Spine' I think there is more than one hybrid out there with similar parentage. Kelly did a cross at RSN that is called Agave 'Blue Emperor' That is nearly a dead ringer for the Agave 'Royal Spine'

The "Royal Spine' was Agave victoria reginae 'compacta' x macroacantha, and the 'Green Emperor' was Agave victoria reginae (a normal form) x macroacantha. The two plants are nearly identical as small plants but the plant Kelly did is a little bluer, larger, and doesn't offset as much as 'Royal Spine'

If I am quoting Kelly correctly, I think the plant that the Huntington had was a plant that came from Kelly via Jose and I am betting that is the same plant that I have. It has a slightly wider leaf than the clone I have from RSN of Agave 'Blue Glow'

There was also quite a bit of confusion between the names "Blue Glow' and "Blue Flame" for a long time..... which could add to the mess here.

I will get out and snap a photo of the Agave 'Red Margin' that i have as well as another unknown plant that came from Tropic world that was labeled as an attenuata x shawii.

Between Kelly and John Trager both being on here, we should be able to get to the bottom of this.

Randy, do you still have the plant you got from John? have you compared a mature one side by side with "Blue Glow" The plant in the photo on your site looks more like my 'Red Margin' than 'Blue Glow' LOL

[Allen Repashy]

Ok, here is the Tropic World 'Red Margin' ....

Note that it is growing on a steep hillside which has caused the plant to arch up towards vertical a bit.



Please also disregard all those pesky weeds.... It's that time of year!

[randyfb]

Allen,
This picture you refer to on our website was one I shot a couple years ago in Jeff Chemnick's garden. I was there again last week and shot the attached picture of this same plant, now approaching 3' across by 2 feet tall - quite beautiful! Note the framing of Jeff's house in the background of this picture - this house was lost in the Tea Fire of November 2008. A sad loss about the house but fortunately much of his beautiful garden and incredible cycad collection survived.

Jeff told me he got his plants from Michael Roberts and believed that Michael got them from Rancho Soledad Nursery. I do still have the original plant from the Huntington but have kept it in a very small pot, which has dwarfed the plant. Though it certainly could be a different cultivar, it does appear to be the same, or at least very similar to all of our crops of 'Blue Glow' which we have purchased as Stage III or IV from Rancho Tissue Technologies. I wasn't aware that there was several forms being called 'Blue Glow' and will certainly plant my original plant up to allow it to grow out so I can compare it to our crops.

I don't think 'Blue Glow' and 'Blue Flame' should be confused other than by the similar names, as they are very different plants.
Randy

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by randyfb

I don't think 'Blue Glow' and 'Blue Flame' should be confused other than by the similar names, as they are very different plants.
Randy

I agree Randy, I think anyone who sees the plants would also. I think the confusion was just a result of similar names being confused by those who didn't see the plants. It seems there were some web references that said they were similar and I think I remember an old Agave group thread on the subject where people were confused on the two plants and some thought they were the same..... The plant with Jeff does look like the RSN clone to me too... Thanks for sharing.
Allen

[Kelly Griffin]

Ok funny story......I was at the Nursery and received a phone call and the gentleman stated to me that the Agave blue glow that we were growing was not actually blue glow. Ok I said.....but are you sure? This gets funnier ~ just wait~ because here is the kicker. I cut up the bluest plant I had on the patio at RSN and RTT put it to TC. I named it Blue Glow for the obvious reasons ie blue color and yellow glow when back lit by the sun or other light source. It is not the same plant as some of the ones I have seen at HBG labeled as such but that is a nice plant too. I know this because I have that clone growing in the ground and it favors attenuata a little more.

I have some other crosses that are very similar and the reason they are not named and out there is for that exact reason they are not different enough to warrant one. I will try to post some pictures and perhaps they will be linked here.

What often happens with crosses is that there is a batch of seedlings and there is some (although often not much) variation in the f1's. I believe that to be the case here.

Royal spine is very similar to Blue emperor in fact they are the same two species crossed but not the same plants as Allen stated. Blue emperor favors the blue of macroacantha more and also since the mother was a larger non offsetting form of victoria reginae, it is a little bigger ultimately and it tends to offset less. It does matter what clones you use.

I hope this is of some help.

I concur with Randy on the Blue Glow/ Blue Flame mix up they are not at all easily confused except they both have the word "blue" in thier name.
I read several years back in an issue of Sunset magazine that they were the same plant.....maybe that helped do the job!

Best regards,
Kelly G

[agavegreg]

Interesting Kelly. I think the question is still out there though. Did you make the cross? If so, what are the parents?

[Aledlheaext]

At fisrt, I am confused just by looking at their photos on the internet I can't tell the difference they look the same to me. Finally, I get both plants and by looking at them in person you'll see the difference...I just took photos this morning -and regarding 'blue flame' I don't have one but I've seen at RSN and difinitely look different. LB

[Allen Repashy]

So Kelly,

Can you please clarify the situation for us? If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that the confusion lies between the two different plants Agave 'Red Margin' aka Agave 'Red Edge' and Agave 'Blue Glow'

The plant Agave 'Red Margin' aka Agave 'Red Edge' is a Hummel hybrid that is from a different breeding, than Agave 'Blue Glow'?..... And if this is so, is it known that it is Agave attenuata x Agave ocahui, or is it only a guess. It looks similar to Agave "Blue Glow' , but there are undoubtedly some other combinations that could come up with a similar appearance. This selection definitely favors Agave attenuata more than Agave 'Blue Glow' does. I also wonder if because of this, it is less cold hardy than Agave 'Blue Glow'

Allen

[halibut]

Hello all, I have been growing Blue Glow for many years now and have received TC material from 2 sources and both are identical. I believe 95% of what is out there came from the plant/clone that Kelly originally put into TC. Looking at it that way, and reading through this thread Kelly named the Blue Glow and made it commercially available. Other similar plants floating around could have came from different crosses or, in fact, the same seed batch that made the "Blue Glow" however, they are not that original Clone that was TC'd. Whether Kelly made the cross or not Blue Glow is a Beautiful Plant and, whether somebody needs/wants to take credit for it is up to them.
Thanks, Larry

[Kelly Griffin]

I will reply to this with as much detail as I can and save it first this time. Last time I spent quite some time answering and when I clicked "reply" it had logged me off and then disappeared my answer! I gave up that night!

So I posted some pictures of the plants. Larry is correct that the same cross can result in different plants although it can be said that most f1's are fairly consistent, when the species used have some variation, then the offspring often does as well. Additionally, when you use different clones for the cross the result not surprisingly is often different.

The plant that I selected and named Blue Glow ( for the obvious reason that it is blue and glows ) is pictured here. The plant that came from HBG labeled as Hummel/ Jose is also shown. It is absolutely not the same. This plant favors one parent more than the other and it is visa versa for Blue glow. I have been purposely vague about the parentage for obvious reasons. We had a number of different plants but we put this clone to TC. This was years ago. Recently, I saw the plant at HBG labeled as Blue glow syn red edge so the confusion continues. I fairly recently had someone call me at the Nursery to inform me that the plant we were selling as cv Blue Glow was not Blue Glow....Really?....Quite funny!

I have made a number of different looking Agave hybrids and selections.....Blue Emperor, Little Shark, Black and Blue,Cubic among others.... I hope they are well received too.

Kelly

[xamarsn]

Hey Kelly

Blue Emperor, Little Shark, Black and Blue,Cubic among others.... I hope they are well received too.

I'm very interested in these plants yet to come...

Are you going to publish info on them soon and where>

Thanks
Claire

[Kelly Griffin]

I might but not before I patent them.....Claire?!

[Kevin Coniff]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Ok, here is the Tropic World 'Red Margin' ....

I was wondering if there are many of these 'red margin' agaves from Tropic World around. I have one with over three foot of stem and am wondering when it will flower. Has anyone had them flower?

[Allen Repashy]

Hi Kevin,

I have seen them here and there, but not very common. I did see some at Tropic World last time I was there (about a year ago) ..... It would be very interesting to document the flowering of your plant as to clues to its parentage. I would for sure love to get some pollen if possible.

Cheers, Allen

[Kelly Griffin]

see I told you! It has attenuata in it and that particular clone more closely follows attenuata which can have stems hanging from cliffs in the wild that reach 8 or 10 feet long. If you figure how long it takes for a plant to grow a stem eight feet long or so, you would have your answer on how long it might take to flower. It seems that attenuatas bloom when they are ready and that can take a long time. Ocahui is also not quick to bloom. Jose/ red margin is not blue glow. Blue Glow more closely follows ocahui but still slow to flower....as Martha would say...thats a good thing!

Kelly

[Tim Harvey]

So Kelly, there is an ICRA for Agave. Are you going to register any of your cultivars there?

T

Originally Posted by Kelly Griffin

I have made a number of different looking Agave hybrids and selections.....Blue Emperor, Little Shark, Black and Blue,Cubic among others.... I hope they are well received too.

Kelly

[Kelly Griffin]

Sure Tim, tell me more! Where is this located? What ever has happened to my Agave Moto sierra??? I did not even get to see them the other day.

Thanks for every thing, I enjoyed sharing your knowledge.

Kelly G

[Tim Harvey]

Agave cultivars are apparently registered here:

http://www.ishs.org/sci/icralist/3.htm

Agave are considered woody plants!

T

[Kevin Coniff]

Agaves are not woody plants.
They are herbaceous perennials. No tree rings!

[Tim Harvey]

I was poking fun at the (poor) system. It seems they ended up there in the absence of somewhere better.

So arborescent Dracaena are ... ?

T

[Kevin Coniff]

It depends.
Some dracenas have tree rings and would be considered woody plants.
Some aloes have tree rings (barberae, dichotoma, pillansii and others (?).

[Kevin Coniff]

Tim,
I agree.
It is a poor system.

[Tim Harvey]

Actually, no monocots produce 'tree rings' - so none of those are considered woody. The arrangement of xylem and phloem is totaly different to dicots.

T