Noob to hybrids

[Brandon]

Hello,
I have grown my pure aloe species for some time, but am just now getting into the hybrids. I am growing vera, brevifolia, striata, variegata, nobilis, and a parvula jacobsonii. I recently visited the Chicago Cactus and Succulent society's annual show and sale at the Chicago Botanic Gardens, and purchased an Aloe "Dorian Black" (as stated on the tag). Through my research i have also seen it called "Doran Black" are these two different things or misconceptions?
Thanks,
-Brandon

[Rosemarie]

The correct name is Aloe 'Doran Black' (often mistagged), if that is your plant. Have fun collecting hybrids!

[thistlesifter]

I talked to Mad Lee at Grigsby's Nursery.

She sold and as far as I know still sells Doran Black under the label 'Dorian Black'

I asked her about it..she said it was a miss-spelled tag.

I leave her Dorian on the tags and make new tags with that spelling for her clones. It is a superior clone of this man-made species.

Arrid Lands version of Doran Black is one of the most beautiful and solid.

C&J's grows Doran Black from from their own seed stock.

I believe this plant is self-fertile.

[Tim Harvey]

Bob, you scare me!

There's only one clone of Doran Black. The most reliable would be that from ISI material. That year's catalog also provided the authoritative description, though I don't have the precise details to hand.

Cultivars can not be propagated from seed unless apomyxis occurs. This has not been reported in the genus Aloe. Even if a hybrid selfs the progeny are genetically different from the parent and so not that cultivar.

T

[Sarmis Luters]

Ducking the harrowing big word Apomixis, crashing to the floor and now picking myself up....

Apomixis
Definition

noun

(1) A type of reproduction in plants where the usual sexual reproduction is replaced by asexual means that does not involve meiosis and syngamy.

(2) Seed production without involving fertilization.

(3) The formation of a new sporophyte but not involving fertilization.


Supplement

This form of reproduction has evolved in ferns, dandelions and other flowering plants. In flowering plants, it occurs in two forms:

gametophytic apomixis
adventitious embryony
Seeds produced by apomixis are genetically similar to the parent plant.


Synonym:

apogamy
agamospermy
See also: asexual reproduction

[Kelly Griffin]

I agree with Tim, One clone.... lots of different growing conditions. Maybe a few mislabeled plants perhaps?

The plant was hybridized by Dick Wright it was named for Doran Black of Blacks house of cactus in Scranton CA....long gone sadly both the man and the plant store.

Mad at Grigsby sold a bunch as Dorian Black....I do not know why, maybe someday she can fill us in but the mans name was Doran. So you can correct your labels for the sake of the gentleman for whom it is named.
The only thing I can think of is Dorian Gray was more popular and Doran is an unusual name.

One of my early hybrids Sean Red was a take on this plants name. Sean for my son and red for the strange red teeth.

Despite the report that appeared in San Marcos growers page that said I used this plant in Christmas Carol....It was the Madagascarine species ....divaricata and descoignsii among others on this one. Speculation is a funny thing! Asking is easier at least while I am here!

Kelly G

[thistlesifter]

Point is...Will the real Doran Black stand up...

Brandon, The initiator for this thread ask a question...and the answer is not so straightforward as it would seem though Rosemarie made a true statement, there are two ways to interpret it. The plant may be miss-labeled by misspellings or by not being a real Doran Black and being labeled as such. It is possible that the plant Brandon is referring to is not Doran Black. Dorian Blacks sold for some time by Grigsby's is not like the Doran Blacks I got from Dick Wright.

I am sure that botanical terminology and nomenclature would be correct coming from Tim and Kelly. My statement about man-made species was not botanically correct. I didn't help the person who is trying to clarify a confusion. My point is that his question cannot be so easily dismissed as a simple spelling error.

I called Mad Lee and asked her the question a couple of years ago. She stated straight out that it was just a miss-spell (typo-caused) on her tag. Months after that I was at the nursery and noticed those plants were still miss-labeled as Dorian Black. There are Grigsby customers all over the country that have these. These are not Doran Blacks (if they are different taxa) by the rationale discussed by Tim. This question has come up in at least 3 major forums.

I've compared several different 'Doran Blacks'.These were trivial comparisons. but the differences are quite noticeable..so I've kept Mad Lee's 'Dorian Black' plants labeled with their own number code because it is a better looking and acting plant than the ones I've gotten from other sources. I like it better than the ones I got from Dick Wright and for a long while I used the 'Dorian Black' exclusively and kept several around so I could have it for use as DB pollen.

Arid Lands had a plant labeled 'Doran Black' several years ago that is quite a bit different than any other so-called 'Doran Black'. It doesn't offset and has so far proved impervious to Aloe Mite. I quit using DB for breeding, but I will one day use Arid Lands plant.

Bob

[Kelly Griffin]

So to further delve into this. It would be very usefull to see pictures of said plants that are different.

Doran Black is one specific clone but I suspect it was not a lone seedling from a batch so it is possible that there were other similar sister seedlings that made it around the block. Dick would have known this I would think.
These other plants would therefore be misnamed as Doran Black. It is my understanding that both the plants that John Cooper grew at his nursery and the ones that Madelyn Lee grew at Grigsbys were the same clone and they came originally from Dick Wright. The fact that Grigsby distributed the plant under the wrong spelling does not make that spelling the name for the cultivar. Alas it will likely long persist as I am not even sure if they are selling it under the corrected name today.

I did a few crosses that looked similar to cv. Doran Black but my take on that was that they looked close enough to not stand alone. One of the reasons I was not in favor of naming my seconds nor was I enthralled with some of the Guido Gang selections was that they were not good enough in my opinion to stand alone. There are a couple of other plants that have somewhat of similar look to Doran like 'quicksilver' or two of mine 'moondance' (renamed angel wings by Bob) and 'great white' and 'white lightning' all different but at the same time not that distinct.

For the day, Doran Black was a real good little plant with great leaf texture and although I still like it, I now see its flaws as well......Weak flower stems and a complete lack of color to the leaves.

There has been some interest in a registry or at least a comprehensive listing of Aloe Hybrids. I think it will happen in the near future and that certainly will be a good thing. Tom V? John Matthews?

For now....Confusion, I guess, will rule the day as it is fast becoming a conglomerate mess. I suppose the hybrids I do will just have to have extra bells and whistles!


Kelly G

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by Kelly Griffin

So to further delve into this. It would be very usefull to see pictures of said plants that are different.

There has been some interest in a registry or at least a comprehensive listing of Aloe Hybrids. I think it will happen in the near future and that certainly will be a good thing. Tom V? John Matthews?

For now....Confusion, I guess, will rule the day as it is fast becoming a conglomerate mess. I suppose the hybrids I do will just have to have extra bells and whistles!
Kelly G

Kelly - So what happened to all the Bill Baker hybrids and plants post his passing. Didn't he have some hybrids that had not made their way to the market and has anyone picked up the ball?

[Tom V]

Originally Posted by Kelly Griffin

There has been some interest in a registry or at least a comprehensive listing of Aloe Hybrids. I think it will happen in the near future and that certainly will be a good thing. Tom V? John Matthews?

For now....Confusion, I guess, will rule the day as it is fast becoming a conglomerate mess. I suppose the hybrids I do will just have to have extra bells and whistles!


Kelly G

Yes, coming very soon. Stay tuned.

Just a week or so ago, someone was selling three different (KG?) hybrids with pre-existing cultivar names from earlier hybrids by Kelly G and Karen Z. Hybrid naming is getting ever more rampant, and we will see more duplicate naming happening and with it more unneeded confusion.

[Tim Harvey]

Maybe I missed something. How will a 'comprehensive' listing of mostly illegitimate names help, other than enable those of the stamp-collector mentality?

How does this fit in with the Alsterworthia Cultivar Project?

Curious but skeptical,

T

[thistlesifter]

Tim,

The Alsterworthia Cultivar Project???? is doing something...in the last 9 years.?

Oh I get it..its that dry humor!!

Got me again

bob

[thistlesifter]

Kelly,
Your Comment
So to further delve into this. It would be very usefull to see pictures of said plants that are different.

I located all of them...no sense in making a big rucus of the variants...always a chance of error in a lot of different quarters.

I have them if you want to look at them at our Nursery.
Still have some of C&J's...not in the running. Jim said they were their own.

Also have another...quite a joke.. I won't mention the source.. just had to have it..complete my 'Stamp Collection' of Doran Blacks.

It occurred to me I could make an educational exhibit...uhh..more rucus stuff.

I will post images of Grigsby's.when I'm up to it.I am betting its the real deal.. 36 years, I've bought from them...Only the second error..in memory.

My forgetter worked good. We have one that was apparently picked up there in the last 2 years that is hand-labeled in Rita's distinctive print-style 'Doran Black'

Then older ones at our place in several pots that are our own hand-labeled tags of props made from the original 'Dorian (sic) Black'. As one would expect it is the same clone as the one labeled 'Doran Black'. Sounds like Mad Lee had them re-labeled within the last couple of years.

Images of the Grigsby clone soon!

bob

[Kelly Griffin]

Bills stuff was great and he was a super nice man. I consider him a friend and always will. Gone way too soon. I know that he found many cool plants in the wild and made many more. He had an eye for the unusual and made a point of sharing freely. He did not to my knowledge have many records for what he made but he did do a number of plants and worked with quite a few different groups. I do not recall seeing many little aloes but the ones that come to mind that he did are the 'jaws' and 'hercules' I gave him a number of mine in trade and he was enthusiastic and supportive of others in this vein.

It would be interesting to find out where the collection ultimately ended up or if it is still intact.

Kelly G

[wuzz]

Kelly,
Bill's name comes up quite abit in that nice Dyckia blog. DyckiaBrazil Forum

I have two of his crosses Dyckia RubySnow and Hechtia Aztec Sun.
Maybe Quail would be interested in starting a Bill Baker hybrid garden.
I will donate two of mine.

There was another Hechtia called Fire Chief...but I can't find it anymore.

[Boo Hollow]

It would be interesting to find out where the collection ultimately ended up or if it is still intact.

Kelly G[/quote]
Kelly - I have heard two different stories regarding his collection, one was that his close friend picked through the plants and acquired some of the best examples and then I heard that Eunice was making a play for them. Nick W. told me that the last time he was down there the plants were still in the collection, so who knows.

[madabouteu]

As far as a list of aloe hybrids - I am in the process of deciding how to set up such a list and have pretty much decided a website is pretty much the best way. I even know of a potential existing website that may allow me space to do so. The goal would be to include all miniature aloes (by which I mean those that at maturity usually have a rosette with a diameter of 6 inches or less) for which I can get a specimen or at least a good photo and reliable information. This is very much in the planning stage. First I have to finish a manuscript on which I am working, it deals with similar species that are pretty easily available - in other words, forget Aloe pronkii or inexpecta! If you have comments on the hybrid project, feel free to send them to me. Even negative comments - so long as they are not flames - can be useful! If you want to mail me off the forum, I am at mosasaur47@msn.com. I am not starting the project because I feel I am a big expert on hybrid aloes - that certainly is not so! Rather, I see it as a way for me to learn a lot while doing something worthwhile.

As for Bill Baker - I was fortunate to meet him a few times and buy a few plants from him. We all are poorer for having lost him - I thought him a very nice guy.

Kenneth Quinn