Aloe what? I.D. Please

[Matt Maggio]

Good debate... it's all in good fun.

[quote

Anyway, the original issue was whether you could do 16,000 in 30 years. I believe the answer is yes?

T[/quote]

I agree it's humanly possible, but as the figure was presented, It's not clear whether or not the genetically diverse progeny from a single act of pollination were accounted for.

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

Allen, get Kelly to show you what to do!

Yeah Tim, he is helping me quite a bit.... the problem is that it takes me about two days of staring at a plant to decide what I want to cross it with......

[xamarsn]

Just to say that Aloe arborescens X Quinton posted is out of this world.
The width on the bracts are outstanding.
Thanks for sharing>>>>

[Wesley Chin]

I agree with Tim in saying that it is possible to make 16000 hybrids in 30 years.

I think Kelly is trying to find out why would you want to make so many hybrids, in the end what is your goal?? |I mean, people can go around crossing anything with everything and land up with plenty more than 16000 hybrids in 37 years (most would be crap and needed to be thrown away) but that is just doing it for the sake of doing something. No goal in mind.

Interested to know all you guys are good mathematicians though

Regards,
Wesley

[Quinton]

Hi guys,

This has become ridiculous! But still good fun!
Yes you can easily do 16k combos in 37 years! And yes Tim is correct this is a lot easier than you guys think! Also the more Aloes you have the easier it is to do more combos.
We don’t do this to drown the world in Aloe hybrids or to impress anyone; Andy and I eat, sleep and breathe Aloe hybrids! Yes we are obsessed!! We have the resources too; large farm in subtropical area with plentiful cheap labor (the joys of Africa….).Andy owns and runs a nursery in SA which more often than not subsidizes our Aloe activities! Our activities are mostly confined to SA and we do this primarily for our own pleasure. It’s definitely not done to create confusion; we have records dating back to Andy’s beginning with Aloes! All combo’s/parentage are recorded; every aloe has its parentage attached. You guys only seem to think simple or semi complex hybrids are worthwhile, you just can’t imagine what can be created with super complex Aloe hybrids. I will get around to posting some more photo’s at some point. Also keep in mind that I am a full time horticulturist, I don’t just do this stuff as a sideline hobby.
Matt, the two most prolific and advanced breeders of medium and large Aloe hybrids created for flowers are in South Africa (Mmm, that statement will probably cause another uproar!)Each of them has 37 years experience Aloe breeding! I am excluding myself as I work for one of them. Matt we do our selections mostly on flowers but there are other criteria, plant shape, vigor, disease resistance etc etc We do have a few named and plant breeders rights protected Aloe hybrids distributed in SA. When I talk about a combo I mean for example candelabrum x arborescens , that equals one combo regardless of whether you get 1 or a 1000 seedlings from that particular combo. I was referring to combos made not seedlings raised, seedlings raised is much much more staggering!
You think our numbers sound mad? Top rose breeding companies create up to 40 thousand seedlings a year and only select 1-2 winners for the market from that!! and all the others are destroyed...

We definitely don’t use the hummingbird/bee technique; personally don’t believe in it even though it can yield amazing results. Crops like Crocosmia have been done mostly like this.
Kelly, our Aloe work has gained a lot of momentum since you were in SA, if you come again do visit us. We have some fragrant varieties but nothing I am truly satisfied with and the more you hybridize them the less fragrant they become which is annoying.
Attached for interest is one of Andy’s old attractive bi-color hybrids, Aloe “Charles”


Regards
From hot sunny South Africa

[Matt Maggio]

Quinton: you have my praise ... I'm obsessed with this stuff too. Sounds like a grand operation to see someday, hopefully if I'm in that part of the world again. I can imagine the space needed for culling large hybrids for flower quality.

That 5-figure really sparked some curiosity...and now I can rest more easily. It's good that you destroy all but the best material... it's as much of a psychological matter as a practical one. I just threw away a few thousand dudleya seedlings, and it felt great

Sorry... I didn't have ruffling someone's feathers 12,000 miles away on my agenda today...but that's kinda neat when you think about it too

Matt

[Quinton]

No problem Matt!

This is a great forum, I just hope it does not fizzle out eventually like some of the others I have been on.

[Allen Repashy]

Quinton,

I think we have a pretty unique little place on the web here. The caliber and coolheadedness of our members, not to mention the experience, has created a pretty special environment......

This thread is a perfect example of people keeping their cool and debating things in good fun. I know that other places on the web, this would have turned into a spitting match and probably made someone butt hurt! I think we are building steam rather than fizzling out.....

I would love to see pics of your prize hybrids when you can find the time.

[Cactusmike]

Thanks for the help guys. I like the speciosa x ferox guess. I was leaning that way myself but wanted to see what the experts had to say. Apparently alot! Before the flowers opened the inflorescens looked alot like A. speciosa in the pattern. I may have gotten this plant from Western Cactus but could be totally off, I forget alot.

[Kelly Griffin]

Ok this has gone a bit off topic and it hurts my head to think about this

Are you argueing that it is a numbers game and by doing 5k or 7k that you are going to come up with something??

I have always gotten on the soap box about this and encouraged others to have a logical approach and first ask the questions about where this is going. IE Are you trying to improve color of flower, number of flowers, frequency of flowers...... the leaf color or shape or texture?

It is easier to get someplace when you have a idea of where you are going or at least and idea of where you want to go!

Oh and by the way.......please throw away all the junk and make sure it is truly worthy before you name something (not just like a mother loves her child) BTW I am getting better at heeding my own advice!

I like you all and to Quinton.....with regard to you and Andy being way ahead of me....I didn't know we were racing! But ....ITS ON! Just kidding!

[Quinton]

Kelly you already won the race! Any plans to come to SA again?

As I said before Andy and myself are just obsessed! While its good to have goals, sometimes its just fun to do something because you enjoy it!

[agavegreg]

I agree it's fun to make hybrids just for the hell of it and see what happens, and I also agree that the hybrid should be special or an "improvement" in some fashion, and not a one shot deal before it is named. Adenium growers and breeders are getting out of hand, and it seems like everybody who makes a cross, hangs a name on every seedling, rendering the cultivar names pointless if the plants are not going to become a commercial entity.

[Allen Repashy]

Yeah, nothing wrong with hybridizing until you can't lift your hand anymore, but I do draw the line when people don't cull and just dump them all on the market and they just end up confusing everyone and starting conversations like this . Breed with focus and direction..... culling a lot, or breed like a hummer and cull a LOT LOT LOT..... both can have good end results.

And WTF is with poeple naming plants they don't propagate? I think the Adenium people are confusing the naming of cultivars with the naming of pets!

[Tim Harvey]

OK Aloe breeders ... I want a purple flowered one!

I have directions for my hybridising programs. More interesting however, are the directions the progeny suggest. Sometimes you get results for directions you didn't even know were possible.

T

[Quinton]

Herewith a promised pic of only a few of Andy's hybrids,SA Winter 2007.
Sorry guys I could not find one without me in the picture ruining it!
(because my wife took the photos....)

As I said before Andy focuses on flowers! People like Kelly are doing the most mind blowing work with foliage on miniature Aloes!!

[RAFAMONTOSA]

Nice place, Quinton!!!

[rpw]

Over the years I have seen many of Andy's hybrids on the Yahoo Groups Aloe list, and I was always amazed by the meticulous record keeping of the parentage involved, not to mention the incredible flower shows many of his plants make... I just wish they were available here in the States.

Peyton

[Stan]

It would be scary to cross Hercules or Goliath or sp.barberae with Aloe ciliaris...imagine the huge groundcover!..like a massive bundle of Anacondas.
Feel free to use my idea.

[Wesley Chin]

Hey everyone,

Stan, is it possible to make A. ciliaris hybrids? I read they have a chromosome difference so was wondering if it is possible to get hybrids from them.

I am going to keep that hybrid in mind when my A. 'Hercules' eventually flowers. It is over 2 metres tall with no sign of flowers yet

Regards,
Wesley

[Quinton]

Hi,

I tried 3-4 ciliaris hybrids some years ago, did not succeed in getting seed but thats not to say its not possible ,I imagine it would behave similar to tenuior which is extremely dominant in hybrids! I once made tenuior x broomii and the result looked like 90% tenuior! It grew much slower and had marginally denser inflorescence.
I dont know if you will succeed in getting barberae or hercules to cross with ciliaris! But give it a try just to see if it can be done!!

Q

[Tim Harvey]

Glad to hear it's difficult. There are some Aloes which simply should not breed!

[Jeff Chemnick]

My my...lots of food for thought here. First time caller, long time listener. I agree with the speciosa x ferox assessment. I'm more intrigued by the math specialists and strange hours some of you keep (e.g. posting arcane messages at 3 AM). But I'm far more blown away by those photos of dense red iinflorescences than anything. My kingdom for a plant or three of that candelabrum x arborescens!

[Kelly Griffin]

Jeff, I think some of the seemingly odd times for the posts are because some of the people are in South Africa and I believe it records the time they actually post it to the forum.....no excuse for me though!

I find it odd that some would want to cross Aloe ciliaris with tree Aloe but who knows?? I do know it has not happened much because of lack of participation. Hercules (bainsii (old name) x dichotima) is somewhat reluctant to flower ~ understatement here!....Have yours flowered yet Jeff?

Goliath (vaombe x bainsii) flowers regularly but so far seems to be unreceptive. Thinking of the cross is the easy part but then you must put the players together and follow it through. Even then, no guarantees. more often than not.... nada or junk.

Yes Quinton, I hope to go to Aloe Mecca in our fall, your spring. I hope I can see you and Andy if it lines up.

Thanks for the kudos guys you too are my kind of sickos! I mean that in a very good way!

Kelly G

[wintergrower]

Ok, I too confess to crossing Aloes, though the numbers talked about here don't seem trivial to me. I wish I had the plants, conditions and time to do more crosses, but what really caught my eye in Tims reply was his mention of tricks getting some crosses to take. Anyone care to take this thread into that direction. Inquiring minds what to know.

Keep growing,
Pete

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

Allen, that is so not the case!!! I cross plants that do not flower at the same time of year. Open pollination can never do that. There are also tricks that are needed to get some species to take.

Who says multiple generations have not been followed and selected, or could not be?

My example was just to show how trivial it would be to make 16,000 crosses. Doing that over 30+ years is straightforward. I have made over 1000 hybrids of another far less fecund genus, and have 5th generation plants in just over 10 years.

T

[Jeff Chemnick]

Man, this website is impossible for me to figure out. I love the Yahoo Groups...when you want to reply, you hit "reply"...Simple. What's up with "quote"? Makes little or no sense. Also can't figure out how to see all the posts in chronilogical order. Again, Yahoo Groups gives you the whole works in a temporal priority and not by threads...But I'm a bit tired...just got home from three weeks in Mexico so please excuse my irracibility (normally I'm a guy of good cheer...just like Santa Claus). Anyway, to the point...yes, my Hercules flowers right as rain every year. Anytime you want to come up and make Aloe whoopie with the Big Herk, just let me know. The color of the flower is more orange than bainesii (which I consider somewhat coral colored).
Jeff, I think some of the seemingly odd times for the posts are because some of the people are in South Africa and I believe it records the time they actually post it to the forum.....no excuse for me though!

I find it odd that some would want to cross Aloe ciliaris with tree Aloe but who knows?? I do know it has not happened much because of lack of participation. Hercules (bainsii (old name) x dichotima) is somewhat reluctant to flower ~ understatement here!....Have yours flowered yet Jeff?

Goliath (vaombe x bainsii) flowers regularly but so far seems to be unreceptive. Thinking of the cross is the easy part but then you must put the players together and follow it through. Even then, no guarantees. more often than not.... nada or junk.

Yes Quinton, I hope to go to Aloe Mecca in our fall, your spring. I hope I can see you and Andy if it lines up.

Thanks for the kudos guys you too are my kind of sickos! I mean that in a very good way!