Aloe what? I.D. Please

[Cactusmike]

I've been waiting for this to flower so that I can post it here and get some help on I.D. Can somebody help me?

Thanks,
Mike

[Wesley Chin]

My guess is A. rupestris x marlothii.

[Quinton]

Hi,

Looks like some type of candelabrum hybrid to me

Quinton

[Kelly Griffin]

As long as you all are guessing.... I am certain it is a hybrid. My guess is speciosa x ferox but where did it come from?

kelly

[Kelly Griffin]

Not likely rupestris x marlothii as the leaves are too narrow (both parents have wider leaves than that of the progeny)

I has either speciosa or arborescens in it and ferox or (candelabrum)

Ask the mail man or the hummingbird!

[void]

Could it possibly have Aloe reitzii in the mix? beautiful plants!

[Kelly Griffin]

I would say not likely as most of the reitzii we have are summer bloomers and that would mean someone would have to have gone to some length to make that cross. On the other hand my speciosa, ferox complex and arborescens all flowered roughly the say time last month,
Also the reitzii flowers perianths curve down and this does not seem to be the case here.

Come on it is flipping hybrid of unknown origin ~ not ugly but not better than the species.

I won't say anymore..... no offense either implied or intended

Kelly

[Quinton]

Hi,

Its unlikely that its a simple hybrid.
I consulted the owner of the company I work for, he has 37 years Aloe breeding experience with over 16 thousand combo's made....
Andy's best guess is ((Candelabrum x (Arborescens x something))
As soon as a hybrid has more than 2 parents things can become a bit tricky. The combo's we work with now in SA often have over 23 parents!

Speciosa hybrids especially in the F1 progeny have much longer more untidy leaves/appearance.

Quinton

[Kelly Griffin]

I disagree. It looks like an f1 to me. I think arborescens and ferox (candelabrum for those that don't like things tidy) only slight floral differences....mostly color and slightly open petal tips.

Not anything that special but a not to ugly f1.


and btw come on now 16K hybrids? really? do you believe everything you read and hear? was this a little exageration maybe? if there are 16 thousand crosses why?

[Quinton]

Hi Kelly,

Have you made actual arborescens x candelabrum ? We have made that combo several times ( using different arbs and different candelabrums) it looks a bit different to the plant in question.

No 16k was not an exaggeration, thats only an average of 432 combos a year( Andy de Wet has been doing this for 37yrs), last year we made just over 2000 combos alone ! For example we have not just tried one type of arborescens, we have used many many and re made many combos to test various attributes of each arb. We work with just about any type of Aloe not just a certain group. As I said before some of our Aloes already have 23 or more parents, that takes time and lots of breeding!We destroy thousands upon thousands of Aloes that dont meet expectations, not for the feint at heart!

If you dont believe me you are welcome to ask someone like Andrew Hankey who knows our work and whose opinion I think you trust .

When it comes to miniature Aloes I will bow down to your experience but when it comes to medium, large and larger Aloes people like Andy de Wet and Leo Thamm ( different company but just as experienced) are definitely ahead.

Regards
Quinton

[Tim Harvey]

16k hybrids over 37 years is just over 1 every day. Not sure how slow you are these days Kelly , but I can easily do 10-20.

T

[Quinton]

Hi,

Herewith attached 2 pics of Candelabrum x Arborescens. A red candelabrum and a reddish arborescens were used. The color is not the important factor here though, note how 50% arborescens is very distinct in a hybrid, Mike's plant is more structured/neater that is why I believe it only has a third or less arborescens in it. I hope this helps.

Regards
Quinton

[Steve Steward]

I don't know why Im jumping on this, but to do controlled crosses on that scale does seem like a huge exaggeration to me.
Having an army of hummingbirds open pollinate a field of aloes probably doesn't count, though it can produce some interesting results

I guess I should introduce my line of Aloe peglerae X soon :/

Steve

(not trying to be snarky Quinton, I swear!)

[Kelly Griffin]

To Tim et al

I bet you can't do 10 to 20 everyday for a year! On second thought you probably can because you like the repetition of doing the same thing over and over and over again.

Assuming 20, If you did that would be 7300 after one year. Now if you can come up 20 different flowers each day with ready pollen and 20 with ripe and ready stigmas you are truly something else! You are still only less than half way there!

Keeping in mind that there 400 plus species the combinations and re combinations are limitless there is a point were I would ask what is it that you are trying to create? (other than confusion like the unidentified mystery aloe)


Hats off to Andy and Quinton ( I met Andy when I was in SA ~ super nice guy and doing some great work particularly with the flowers ) Have you done anything fragrant yet?

KJG

[Tim Harvey]

20 plants in flower = 400 permutations.

Since reciprocal crosses are not equivalent, that makes 800.

If you have 50 plants in flower (this is not at all difficult - I have 40+ at the moment) then the numbers rapidly escalate to 5,000 - already 1/3 of the way there.

Not a bad day's work.

T

[Allen Repashy]

Hybridizing so many plants seems to me that it would have about the same results as just collecting garden set seed and seeing what comes out of it. I don't question that someone can actually do it, but I do question the ability to have a manage a goal and selectively breed for it while keep track of so many combinations. I would think it better to really think about hybridizing goals and concentrate on selectively breeding multiple thought out generations rather than crossing everything under the sun to see what happens and throw away anything you don't like....

What has been the goal of the project? Is it just for fun, or to produce and market new plants? How many of these hybrids have been cultivated, named, and distributed? Is there a catalog or website of these plants anywhere? I would love to see it as I am always trying to picture new and interesting crosses. I have no idea what is going on with breeders in Africa, and it sounds like there is a lot more going on than I thought. Are you also doing a lot of 'Tree Aloe' crosses?

Cheers, Allen

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

20 plants in flower = 400 permutations.

Since reciprocal crosses are not equivalent, that makes 800.

If you have 50 plants in flower (this is not at all difficult - I have 40+ at the moment) then the numbers rapidly escalate to 5,000 - already 1/3 of the way there.

Not a bad day's work.

T

LOL Tim,

How many of those combinations you think you could get done before they bloom out.... especially if you were taking the time to mark the flowers and log the cross in a book... Then you gotta collect all that seed, sew it, grow it on to a size that it looks like something... I think that's going to be a long day!

[Tim Harvey]

Allen, that is so not the case!!! I cross plants that do not flower at the same time of year. Open pollination can never do that. There are also tricks that are needed to get some species to take.

Who says multiple generations have not been followed and selected, or could not be?

My example was just to show how trivial it would be to make 16,000 crosses. Doing that over 30+ years is straightforward. I have made over 1000 hybrids of another far less fecund genus, and have 5th generation plants in just over 10 years.

T

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Hybridizing so many plants seems to me that it would have about the same results as just collecting garden set seed and seeing what comes out of it. I don't question that someone can actually do it, but I do question the ability to have a manage a goal and selectively breed for it while keep track of so many combinations. I would think it better to really think about hybridizing goals and concentrate on selectively breeding multiple thought out generations rather than crossing everything under the sun to see what happens and throw away anything you don't like....

What has been the goal of the project? Is it just for fun, or to produce and market new plants? How many of these hybrids have been cultivated, named, and distributed? Is there a catalog or website of these plants anywhere? I would love to see it as I am always trying to picture new and interesting crosses. I have no idea what is going on with breeders in Africa, and it sounds like there is a lot more going on than I thought. Are you also doing a lot of 'Tree Aloe' crosses?

Cheers, Allen

[Matt Maggio]

This is becoming comical...

Oh yeah, well I saved or created 1.2 million new aloe hybrids... with the stroke of a single artist's brush

Seriously, the mathematical logic makes sense but who would do such a thing and keep track of it all. If you're talking about one person... before one could feasibly get through 5,000 possible combinations, some of those 50 inflorescences would be spent, and new ones would have to replace the dead. One may possibly gather the pollen from 50 different aloes together at once, and distribute a carefully mixed blend to 50 different stigmas, but that wouldn't guarantee all possible combinations.

Fun stuff to ponder... but actually raising this many hybrids to fruition is another feat, and I agree the only real result would be mass confusion.

[Allen Repashy]

Point well taken Tim on saving pollen from species that flower at different times..... but you still need a goal or focus or you are just acting like a hummingbird that stores pollen!

[Tim Harvey]

Who says hummingbirds are bad? They select plants which produce lots of nectar or nectar they like the smell of. I select plants I like the look of, depending on what breeding program they're in.

5000 crosses would take about a week by my estimates. I prepare all my labels in advance (when it's dark). Computers and spreadsheets make keeping track of things routine and not as time-consuming as people seem to think.

For some things I cound every seed from every pod, track number of pods/plant and seeds/pod.

It's easier than you all seem to think.

T

[Matt Maggio]

...easier if you're retired Tim

This teases the subject of culling plants. When is it time to throw away? To grow on? What are the market consequences of say... 16,000 different aloe hybrids?

[Allen Repashy]

Ok Tim,

Just for fun, I did a little math.

If you worked doing nothing but pollinating, eight hours a day, for seven days.. that is 8 x 60 = 480 minutes x 7 days = 3360 minutes.

3360/5000 = one plant every 40 seconds..... In that time you have to pollinate and mark each plant, Assuming you have the pollen already in your hand.....and your database done. I don't think I could move that fast

[Tim Harvey]

I'm sure there are well over 16,000 hybrids already out there, the majority masquerading as true species.

Of course, even though semi-retired, I doubt I am able to spend more time than a professional plant breeder would, plus I don't have the same resources.

T

Originally Posted by Matt Maggio

...easier if you're retired Tim

This teases the subject of culling plants. When is it time to throw away? To grow on? What are the market consequences of say... 16,000 different aloe hybrids?

[Tim Harvey]

I did too. I can pollinate an Aloe in 5 seconds. Allowing for other admin stuff, I added on 25 seconds to come up with my conservative estimate of 7 days.

Allen, get Kelly to show you what to do!

Anyway, the original issue was whether you could do 16,000 in 30 years. I believe the answer is yes?

T

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Ok Tim,

Just for fun, I did a little math.

If you worked doing nothing but pollinating, eight hours a day, for seven days.. that is 8 x 60 = 480 minutes x 7 days = 3360 minutes.

3360/5000 = one plant every 40 seconds..... In that time you have to pollinate and mark each plant, Assuming you have the pollen already in your hand.....and your database done. I don't think I could move that fast