Kelly Griffin Hybrid Aloes

[smurnan]

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any stockists of Kelly's hybrid aloes in Europe? Or failing that and USA based stockist or wholesaler who is prepared to export to the UK?

I've been collecting these aloes for a few years and they are really hard to come by in the UK.

Thanks,
Steve

[dave2166]

Hi Steve,

small world isnt it?


i have to agree with your comments though, its frustrating to see and hear so much about the specialist growers and hybridizers in america, and the lack of them in the UK, it takes so long for them to cross the water, and then to get propagated for retail

Maybe its our climate, too wet and cold for too long , whilst so much of america is just ideal for the Agave, Aloes, etc to prosper.. that the wider populace just hasnt got into them yet, and their arent enough serious collecctors (like us two!!) to make it commercially viable

[Wesley Chin]

Hi Guys,

Same thing here, I think there are only about 8 or 10 Kelly Griffin plants here in South Africa at the moment. Hopefully that will change soon. Also funny how the people overseas have more of the Aloes by them than here. eg. A. meyeri, A. haemanthifolia etc.

Wesley

[smurnan]

Hi Wesley,

I've got 11 in my collection but would like to get hold of Lavender Star and Peppermint. I've not seen these in Europe at all.

I'd be prepared to import a commercial quantity and pay for the phytosanitary certificate as well if I could find a supplier.

[Wesley Chin]

Hi,

Which ones do you grow? I only have Pink Blush, Carmine, Donnie, Medium Well Done, Confused, Silver Ridge and other one, can't remember.

Wesley

[smurnan]

Hi Wesley,

I've got

Vito
Donnie
Carmine
Diego
Twilight Zone
Emerald Ridge
Silver Ridge
Pink blush
Guido
Angelo
Franko
Marko

[Allen Repashy]

Peppermint, Sunrise, and Lavender Star are plants propagated by Kelly and I and you can contact us through the forums if you are interested in getting one for yourself.

I have been working on an online store, but am still a ways off from actually going live with it.... any comments on the site are welcome.

[smurnan]

Hi Allen,

Many complements on the site. Just reading the old posts is an education

I'd be very greatful if you could put me in touch with anyone who has these great plants for sale.

[Allen Repashy]

You are in touch with the only two people who sell these plants Just send Kelly or I a personal message through the forums. I was talking about comments on the store I linked to, not this one..... but thanks!

[smurnan]

P.M. in your inbox Allen,

I've just checked out your store and that looks good as well. Snow Glow looks spectacular as well as the 3 aloes.
Regards,
Steve

[Kelly Griffin]

So much to say on this but how do you do it without getting on a soap box.

I first want to acknowledge both John Bleck and Dick Wright....two great plant people and great men that have been very kind to me in sharing both ideas and know how.

For me especially as of late, it has been more than a little bit uncomfortable. I have taken years to combine and create some neat little plants only to see others take the profit and sometimes credit for some of these plants sometimes to my complete exclusion. This has sadened me greatly. I will discuss this perhaps later at a more appropriate time.

What I can say is that there is much confusion and I think it is very important to set the record straight and get some better understanding of what should be done.

A registry is important and relavent. I would like to see the people actively hybridizing these succulents (in particular Aloes) get behind this and develop some understanding so that there are not 6000 look alike hybrids with 6000 names. This forum is the way to do that.

I would like it if people would not name my rejects and throw aways and most importantly not sell them as "Kelly Griffins" If I named it then I thought it was worthy. I am making great strides in getting the junk to where it belongs but others should to.

If you use one of the good hybrids to create something "new" for god's sake make absolutely sure that what you decide is "new" is actually different enough to stand alone before you add to the pile. It has taken me years to develop the colors and textures. One or two crosses does not warrant five or ten new names! One or two crosses might yield one plant that requires more refinement..... It doesn't hurt to know what you are trying to acheive before you go about doing it either....enough said.

I would like to say that I have great admiration for several of my peeps Karen Zimmerman, Tim Harvey, Matt Maggio and Nate among others. They inspire me. I have offered help and enjoyed their company and help in return. I look forward to seeing the directions they take and plants they make. Hopefully they will share!

Best regards to all,

Sincerely,

Kelly G

[smurnan]

Hi Kelly,
I was unaware of the issues you raised being new to the forum and being here in England. I naively assumed that the plants sold as one of your hybrids were just that and all dues paid to the patent holder.

Cheers,
Steve

[Richard Cranium]

Hi Kelly,

I have always been a big fan of your plants and collected as many of them as I can find. I think I have bought some of those unnamed "Kelly Griffin Hybrids" on ebay, and just had a question about them..... Do you wholesale off your unnamed 'Rejects' to people, who in turn sell them as your "Kelly Griffin Hybrid" plants?

I know there are a lot of Echeveria's out there that are sold as "Dick Wright Hybrids" or plants of his that were renamed and sold as someone else's hybrids..... that he didn't name. I was told that he wholesaled off all his reject seedlings, and this is how that happened..... So I was just curious is this is where your unnamed plants are coming from..... I would think the way to prevent this from happening would be to burn anything you haven't named that isn't still on your bench for consideration or breeding. Or are these "Kelly Griffin Hybrids" simply your named plants that people have lost the labels on, so they can't sell them with the right name?

Is there a webpage or something that has photo's of your named plants that I can use as sort of a wish list? That would be awesome because my goal is to get them all!.....and throw away the unnamed ones

One thing I really like about most of your plants is looking at them and trying to see your inspiration for naming the plant. Most of your names are really descriptive and look like they took a lot of thought... or they were named in recognition of someone who must have inspired you in some way.

The only ones I can't figure out are all the ones with the Italian names. With a name like Griffin, you sound more Irish than Italian. Did you name these after members of your family, or have a lot of Italian Friends? I have always been curious about this.

Harry

[RAFAMONTOSA]

Hi Kelly,
I too would like aloes hybrids from "kelly griffin", but I understand your position!

it's not well that someone take advantage of the work and effort of others!





regards...
Rafa

[xamarsn]

I've got

Vito
Donnie
Carmine
Diego
Twilight Zone
Emerald Ridge
Silver Ridge
Pink blush
Guido
Angelo
Franko
Marko

Hey Kelly

Which ones arent your plant names?

[ChrisN82]

With bromeliad hybrids, this same type of issue exists there too. One notable hybridizer, Chester Skotak, anything he does not name himself goes into a giant hole in the back of his nursery.

There have been a few cases where he sold unnamed hybrids, but they went to friends to be named by those friends with his blessings.

[Wesley Chin]

Hi Kelly,

I have seen many of your "Rejects" and "Throw-aways" sold on eBay not being labelled as "Kelly Griffin" but just being given a name. You can clearly see they are yours as they have the characteristics of your plants. That is wrong right?

Also, I think this is an important question, is it fine if people hybridize with your plants and then make names of their own? Just for example: A. 'Pink Blush' (Your hybrid) x A. aristata. Or 'A. Pink Blush' x 'Carmine' (Two of your own).

This will clear my mind in terms of questions about your plants.

Regards,
Wesley

[halibut]

Wow, weird situation on these Aloes.

It is not right to not be giving the breeder credit, that's for sure.

Here is some info. many of you may or may not know.

The Italian names given to a group of the Aloes was done by a large commercial propagator who paid for the rights to do so. In turn, this company trademarked (TM) the Italian names. They did not however, Patent (PP) them. Therefore, anybody can legally grow and propagate using any names other than the said trademarked names. ie Vito,Guido,etc.. Those plants are not "Throw-Aways" and should not be treated as such.

Many of the newer hybrids are shown with PPAF which means the Patent has been applied for. Whether patented or patent applied for, the plants marked as such are protected. There is a 2 year period from the time of application to the of granted patent. The patent is then good for 18 years. A trademark is valid for 18 years also however, a trademark can be renewed again and again while a Patent cannot.

The Patent holder, depending on the actual deal, will be given said Royalty fee on for any outside propagation granted for this material. Unless of course sold directly by the holder.

Plants that are trademarked may also involve Royalties to the breeder or the breeders employer???

Thanks, Larry

[agavegreg]

Ahhhh! the succulent world is beginning to face the same questions that have long occupied the minds of those who grow trees and shrubs. Trademark abuse!!! Check out Tony Avent's article on this topic. It's got a lot of valuable information.

Plant Delights Nursery -- The Trademark Myth

[smurnan]

I've just read Tony's article. What a minefield

[Allen Repashy]

Good comments Larry, but I think there is more to it than meets the eye.

The Italian names given to a group of the Aloes was done by a large commercial propagator who paid for the rights to do so.

Hypothetically speaking, what if the person who sold these rights wasn't the person who bred or named the plants, and they didn't have the right to do so?

In turn, this company trademarked (TM) the Italian names. They did not however, Patent (PP) them. Therefore, anybody can legally grow and propagate using any names other than the said trademarked names.

This is a good point and true..... and unfortunately, this is a major contributor to the confusion for collectors. The Italian plants are already being marketed under different names to avoid trademark infringements and are confusing consumers and collectors alike.

Many of the newer hybrids are shown with PPAF which means the Patent has been applied for. Whether patented or patent applied for, the plants marked as such are protected.

When the "Italian Jobs" were originally listed on the propagators website, they were ALL listed as PPAF, only a year later being changed to TM.

Putting PPAF on a plant to deter others from propagating it as a 'bluff" without actually having completed and submitted the application is a federal crime. This also holds true for using "TM" on a product when the application has not yet been submitted.

In the case of the "Italian Jobs" for example. If someone wants to take one of these plants... let's say "Guido" and propagate it, they can change the name of the plant and do whatever they want with it... which ads confusion by having a plant tagged with multiple names.... or they could opt to market the plant as "Guido" which they would have to do in cooperation with the trademark holder and pay a royalty if that is the agreement.
The valid reason for doing this would be that the trademark holder has most likely spent a lot of money marketing the plant and building it's name... so people will likely want the plant they have seen advertised by name.

What I don't understand is how cultivar names and trademark names can exist in harmony.... I should probably read Tony's article as I imagine that this is one of the big issues here...

If I name a cultivar and publish the name properly..... can someone come along and change the name by trademarking it? Does the person who names the cultivar properly also need to trademark the name to cover there bases?

I mean once a cultivar is named, that should be the end of it shouldn't it?

Of course, there is no "Cultivar Police" that is going to prosecute you and convict you of a crime and asses monetary penalties...... such as with trademarks and patents.

Totally confusing isn't it?

Allen

[agavegreg]

A cultivar name is the name that sticks with the plant through all of eternity until the earth is swallowed up by a black hole. Hence, names such as "Guido", "Pink Blush", "Blue Glow", etc., if properly published, are the names those plants will be known by long after the originator is gone and buried. Any other name used as a trademark name is ephemeral and will disappear when the company goes belly up.

[Allen Repashy]

Thanks Greg,

So you are saying that if a plant is published with the name Aloe xyz, and the name xyz is listed as a trademark, then this would also make it the cultivar name if published correctly.....

But if the name was given a cultivar name ..... and then given a trademark name by someone else later, then the plant could have two names?

[agavegreg]

So you are saying that if a plant is published with the name Aloe xyz, and the name xyz is listed as a trademark, then this would also make it the cultivar name if published correctly. - No, not at all. The cultivar name is the cultivar name. Agave x 'Blue Glow' will always be known as that.

But if the name was given a cultivar name ..... and then given a trademark name by someone else later, then the plant could have two names?

Read the clip below I took from Tony's article. The same could apply to any group of plants. Using the Roses example from Tony's synopsis, let's say someone markets a bunch of Aloe hybrids under the the trademark group of Blush® Aloes. The cultivars could be 'Pink Blush', 'Blue Blush', 'Blushing Bride', etc. So one cultivar might be sold as Aloe x 'Blushing Bride' "Blush® Aloes". At least that's how I read it. Of course I'm no lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV.

This use of trademarks as secondary "pseudo-cultivar" names for a particular plants violates both the spirit of the Nomenclature Code, as well as US trademark law. Trademark law clearly states if a trademark name becomes the common use (generic) name of a particular item, then the trademark becomes invalidated. Trademark lawyers have long advised nurseries to write the cultivar name in single quotes and smaller type and then the trademark name without single quotes in larger type. In their minds, this keeps their trademark valid. Nurseries are also told by their trademark lawyers as long as they enforce their trademarks, by making sure the cultivar name is always included with the trademark name, their trademarks would remain valid. This bizarre thinking, however, defeats the entire reason for improperly using trademarks, which is to trick the public into thinking the trademark name is the generic name of the product. It is this intentional deceit that will one day bring the Federal Trade Commission onto the horticultural scene.
A properly used trademark would be one such as Star® Roses, which is used to market a large group of roses under a single umbrella trademark. This trademark would have remained valid if they had not then began using their trademark to also market individual cultivars such as Rosa 'Wezaprt' as Bronze Star™ Rose and Rosa 'Wezlavn' as Silver Star® Rose.

[halibut]

Good Evening, yes what a difficult subject one with which I have been dealing with for about 30 years. Only recently however, has the subject entered my hobby plants, that being succulents. To really get to the nitty gritty lawyers are in fact needed.

-What if the person who sold these rights for the Aloes was not the breeder nor had permission from the breeder to do so? That would Suck! What actually happened is really none of my business and I cannot comment further.

-PPAF and TM are valid but, yes, can often be a bluff. The group TM is Retro Gang TM the individual TM is ex: Guido TM. The 2 year period required for validation enables anybody to dispute the PP or TM. The 2 year period also enables the person submitting the PP or TM to change there minds. It can work in many cases and TM's are more confusing because they do not have a number and are harder to track. Most plants are now in fact Patented as indivduals but, TM's as a group ex: Verbena Tapien Blue Violet. Blue-Violet and all the other colors are individully patented and the word Tapien is the TM. Raphiolepsis Majestic Beauty TMPP. The word Majestic Beauty is TM's, the patent is past 18years so it can be grown legally under a different name but, you will not be able to take adavantage of the marketing of the Majestic Beauty name.

-Plants being on the market with multiple names is confusing and there are many reasons why this can happen. Hypothetically speaking sometimes commitments are made for multiplication of large quantities, if these commitments cannot be met, these large quantities often require a second home which are not in conjuntion with the TM holder.

-Royalties Administration are the Plant Patent Police. I get visited at least once a year and receive calls from time to time having to explain myself. TM's and Patents can be fought. I have had to collect records with dates and prove that I have being growing a plant before patent submission. I have also had to destroy crops and pay penalties, only once, about 15 years ago. Anybody know the story about Nandina Gulf Stream?

It is unfortunate that an issue like this has developed with such beautful plants. I can only say his plants are special and regardless of verbal/written credit, we all no who creatred them. I hope everybody has this thought and respect.

Let's now get back to talking about Xerics. I leave you with a picture of a freak variegated form of one of the said Aloe's.

Thanks, Larry