Cactus ID

[Boo Hollow]

These cacti were observed on the SW edge of the Anzo-Borrego desert. Any clues as to what type of Ferocactus it is?

[thistlesifter]

The old name for this was Ferocactus acanthodes.

common name: California Fire Barrel

Hunts Lexicon, Andersons Cactus Family reports that Taylor rejected Acanthodes in 1979 and it is now called:
Ferocactus cylindraceus

Widely distributed over Southern Calif, Arizona and into Baja Calif. Mexico. It is highly variable in spination and size.

It has been pirated for many years and decimated in some areas from collectors as far back as the early 1900's. In the 1940s along route 66 curio shops sold Cactus Candy made from these plants.

There are old photos of another highway through the pass from Palm Springs through the mountains to San Bernardio what is now I-10 with sparsely populated forests of 6 foot specimens of this magnificent cactus..

[Steve Steward]

F. cylindraceus

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by thistlesifter

The old name for this was Ferocactus acanthodes.

common name: California Fire Barrel

Hunts Lexicon, Andersons Cactus Family reports that Taylor rejected Acanthodes in 1979 and it is now called:
Ferocactus cylindraceus

Widely distributed over Southern Calif, Arizona and into Baja Calif. Mexico. It is highly variable in spination and size.

It has been pirated for many years and decimated in some areas from collectors as far back as the early 1900's. In the 1940s along route 66 curio shops sold Cactus Candy made from these plants.

There are old photos of another highway through the pass from Palm Springs through the mountains to San Bernardio what is now I-10 with sparsely populated forests of 6 foot specimens of this magnificent cactus..

Thank you. We had read that they had recently discovered a population of the ssp. tortulospina within the confines of the Anza-Borrego boundaries (CSSA Journal) and are not really cactus people, so are not sure how to tell the two apart.

Yes. Tragic what happened to the deserts in the early 30's especially as Harry Johnson and others reported the raping of the lands. I had read one report that a truck pulled into the L.A. area offering an assortment of cacti and there were more than 10,000 specimens on board. Would have been nice to see the desert prior to it getting plundered.

Last trip we were taking pictures of Agave deserti and the ranger pulled up behind us and asked to inspect our vehicle. We had unknowingly parked about 20 feet away from a pile of freshly dug specimens of the pictured cactus.

Thank you again for the information.

[Allen Repashy]

I think if you take a hike and get more than a mile or so from any road or well beaten path, that you will find they are for the most part, still there in their glory. Most plants are taken from places you can drive to or at least see from a road..... poachers are lazy for the most part... but so are most people that want to only see plants.... I encourage people to get off the trail (bring a compass and water of course) and do some exploring. There are still plenty of wonderful places to see.

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

I think if you take a hike and get more than a mile or so from any road or well beaten path, that you will find they are for the most part, still there in their glory. Most plants are taken from places you can drive to or at least see from a road..... poachers are lazy for the most part... but so are most people that want to only see plants.... I encourage people to get off the trail (bring a compass and water of course) and do some exploring. There are still plenty of wonderful places to see.

Allen - Agree. There was a "law" that Bob Stebbins proclaimed for herpers many years ago after spending days and hours in the desert collecting herp specimens with his long time friend Nathan Cohen. Whilst he was out and about and not finding anything, he comes back each time to the car, where Nate has not left more than 100 yards in either direction and has a slew of specimens in his bags and jars. So Bob defined Cohen's law as the farther you get away from the vehicle, the less you find. The cactus law must be the opposite. The nearer you are to your car, the less you will see.

Fieldwork with Bob was always a blast and everytime we would venture farther and farther from the car, I would remind him of Cohen's law. We would still press on. I learned a lot from the "Dean of Western Herpetology".

For those interested in the Anza Borrego - there was a newer publication released on the Fossil Treasures of Anza Borrego that would be a real eye opener for most. The times have changed and this is a new desert for all intents and purposes. Great reading on the area, plus the benefits of explaining some of the soils and morphological features.

[Steve Steward]

As far as I knew, ssp. tortulospinus was totally endemic to Baja. I just perused Sonoran Desert Plants - Turner et. al (1995) and tortulospinus was still listed as restricted to BC. Your plant does look somewhat similar (lots of variation in F. cyl) but the tortulospinus i've seen were much more crazy in their spination. I'd love to see some citations of tortulospinus in Anza if you have them though.

SS

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by Steve Steward

As far as I knew, ssp. tortulospinus was totally endemic to Baja. I just perused Sonoran Desert Plants - Turner et. al (1995) and tortulospinus was still listed as restricted to BC. Your plant does look somewhat similar (lots of variation in F. cyl) but the tortulospinus i've seen were much more crazy in their spination. I'd love to see some citations of tortulospinus in Anza if you have them though.

SS

See the attached link that Mark Dimmitt published on a range extension of the tortulospinus. I know this was published in one of the journals recently.

http://symbiota.org/intermountain/po...hp?taxon=19537

[Steve Steward]

this appears to be a bad seinet url. I also looked on FNA and didn't see anything current on F. c. tort.

[Boo Hollow]

Here is the map that Mark posted title F. c. tortulospina.

[Steve Steward]

also bad url

[Boo Hollow]

I stand corrected. Mark Dimmitt redirected me to the article that appeared in the CSSA Journal in the Jan-Feb 2010 issue titled:
Ferocactus cylindraceus subspecies tortulispinus in the Anzo (sic)Borrego Desert W Jürgen Schrenk

This is the reference I mistakenly applied to Mark. Sorry for the confusion.

[Matt Maggio]

There are still remarkable stands of var. lecontei in the East Mojave National Preserve, and I've seen this variety in southwestern Utah and as far northwest as the Panamint range, Inyo County, CA.

Anza Borrego still has impressive stands of var. cylindraceus off Hwy S2, along with many twisty forms that could be easily confused with var. tortulispinus.

Here's my sighting of tortulispinus from south of Catavina, BCN.

[Boo Hollow]

Matt - Wow. Great deal of similarity between your pics and mine. Have you read the CSSA article? Comments? Mark was quick to let me know it was not his article with nothing further about it. Don't want to read into anything. Any other readers of the CSSA Journal that are familiar with the article?

[cactusjordi]

I immediately tried to convince Jürgen Schrenk and his companion Anrew that this is a long spined form of F. acanthodes only. Similar to the long and twisted but white spined colony near Box Canyon.
South of Cataviña the small F. tortulispinus are really impressive, but when bigger they almost look like common F. acanthodes. Whatever 'common' means for this taxon

Jordi

[thistlesifter]

During mid-1970's, we (late-Son and I) botanized most cactus growing regions of the Mojave and parts of Colorado, Sonora, and Anza-Borego Deserts. Still have BLM maps of these areas that we used over a five-year period.

That was the day..we could four-wheel almost anywhere...all that means is we were just more remote and buried deeper when we got stuck... And the best thing was we were politically correct for the day. We didn't know about global warming and how fragile the desert is... pre-Columbian Native Americans..didn't either from all I've read!

I had permission to enter military reserves and we four-wheeled to places not often visited. At that time I as a great believer in Backeberg's Lexicon of Cactus. It was our Bible in our travels.

If Backeberg had traveled these areas in the day he would have published many varieties of Ferro acanthodes, cory alversonii, Echinomastus johnsonii and Sclero. polyancistrus. Acanthodes and others' spine color, form, count and length are amazingly diverse.

Additionally, I've seen ancient photos with scenic views of acanthode 'forests' of 6'-7' specimens on mountain slopes of the Mojave that we sought out. These are gone.

There are a few places in protected foot-accessible valleys where we found stands of a few dozen of the big plants. But nothing like what can be seen in the early monochrome images.

I would like to find some of those old images...perhaps these were in Harry Johnson's old catalogs.

Bob Weeks

[Boo Hollow]

Bob - Nothing in Harry's catalogues that I can remember and I have most of them back to 1939. Baxter's Cactus of California 1935, has some great pics of the desert plants and even states the problems back then with the raping of the deserts and the truck loads of plants being pulled out by the cactus dealers in Southern Cal. It just shows that the desert is ever so slow to recover and some 75 years later, the slopes are barren and people whom raped the planet for a few bucks are long gone but their ever lasting damage remains.

Plants from seed and propagated plants are the only way to preserve what is left of the diminishing desert flora. Responsibility amongst all of us is key to survival. NO wild collected plants! Period!

There are a few strongholds of nice assemblages of cacti in remote regions of the deserts that as modern technology shows pinpoint locations on BLM maps, are soon to raped as well. California needs to enact the same strict laws that Arizona and Mexico have done to protect the denziens of the desert.

Off my soapbox!

[Matt Maggio]

Originally Posted by Boo Hollow

Plants from seed and propagated plants are the only way to preserve what is left of the diminishing desert flora. Responsibility amongst all of us is key to survival. NO wild collected plants! Period!

There are a few strongholds of nice assemblages of cacti in remote regions of the deserts that as modern technology shows pinpoint locations on BLM maps, are soon to raped as well. California needs to enact the same strict laws that Arizona and Mexico have done to protect the denziens of the desert.

Here you go. These F. cylindraceus (mixed with younger wislizenii) are 15 years old from seed. The mother was a 2-foot specimen I had bought from a nursery near Joshua Tree when I was a young kid... don't worry, it had been legally salvaged. The specimen, being old and without many roots never really established for me in all the twelve years that I had it! Finally, I took the sluggard out to Scissors Crossing in Anza Borrego and planted it with its friends. Sadly, it lasted another 2 years before finally croaking. At least it's progeny carry on.

I used the square-foot-week concept in nursery cost accounting to help calculate how much I would have to charge for each one to make a decent profit. I assumed 10 cents per square-foot per week for 15 years in overhead... accounting for the various sizes of development. That combined with estimated variable costs I would have to charge at least 70 dollars a piece. Now, they could be bigger by now if I had taken better care in their early years, but not by much. Nevertheless, I wouldn't expect many commercial growers to bother with these. I obviously didn't grow them for profit. I just liked the plants, and I had time on my side.

I think the most tragic thing about all those collected barrel cacti was that 99% of them probably never lived for more than several years in their new home... after having endured more than a century in some cases.

That being said, I wouldn't deride all plant collecting. If a site were slated for development... I'd say go in and try to save every last individual, less the jumping chollas perhaps

Matt

[Boo Hollow]

Matt -
I totally agree with rescuing plants doomed for destruction. Look at all the Golden Barrels that were going to inundated and were fortuantely salvaged. Look at all the Agave shawii that was rescued in front of the DHS bulldozers at Border Field. Removing plants from the wild prior to their habitat being destroyed is an absolute must. So do not get me wrong that collecting from the wild is wrong, it at times is just completely irresponsible and other times, the best thing that can be done. The Border Field plants have spread far and wide and there are hopes to replant once the triple fence is completed and the DHS and Border Patrol folks allow for the activitiy to take place.

Another good case in point would have been the rescue of all the Opuntia basilaris treleasii that were bulldozed during the development of Bakersfield. Look at the pics in Baxter's book and they go on for miles. Now you can go on for miles and miles and never find a one. Two populations remaining and very few people are growing, so seed and plants are very infrequently available. Popularity seems to drive preservation more than the real need. Rescue the cute furry creatures and destroy the ugly ones.

On that note, I have a few Arctostaphylos specimens from the threatened Pajaroensis variety only because I happened to be at the church where the largest population is growing and the gardeners were out there wacking away with their hedge trimmers and dumping the cuttings into the greenwaste bins. WTF??? So I rescued the cuttings and propagted a few and now they are growing on my property. So again, rescue when you can and prevent the destruction prior to needing to rescue.

[Zeroscraper]

I shot a few pics of Ferocactus in the Kingston Mts in 2005. Unfortunately I was passing through pretty quick and didn't leave a lot of time to look around. I was surprised to encounter them that far north. Even more surprised to read of them (in this thread) in the Panamint Range. It will probably be years before I can return to SoCal for plant hunting or else I would ask where to find them.

I was also surprised to find Ferocactus in Peach Springs, AZ.





monster Nolina, Kingston Mts

[Boo Hollow]

Zeroscraper - First take no offense to the following. One of the reasons a lot of us do not publish where we have found species of interest is the fact that people use this information to go plant hunting. Case in point. Shortly after the Agave albopilosa was announced, people headed out to find this protected plant. I have word from my Hungarian friend that some Czech collector is selling seed in Europe. Still have not confirmed this, but know that there are lots of less than honorable people out there that seek personal gain over long term preservation.

I believe quite a few botanist have published their reluctances to disclose geographical location data for new species since these populations are soon ravaged.

Nice pictures.

[Zeroscraper]

Point taken, however, #1 you're preaching to the choir - I'm well aware of the problems with illegal and unscrupulous collection of cacti and other plants. Many populations of Pediocactus nigrispinus have disappeared from habitat here in Washington. #2 Ferocactus cylindraceus is far more widespread than Agave albospilosa, hence I think that comparison doesn't go very far. While I don't support irresponsible collecting in general, certainly species with a very restricted distribution are much more in danger from this practice than those that are relatively common in the wild.

I generally propagate everything from seed or cuttings from reputable companies or that I collected myself and usually don't feel too bad about it. I mainly visited the Kingston Mts to get seed of Nolina parryi subsp wolfii. I got just a few Ferocactus seeds but germination was poor.

[Allen Repashy]

Good points by all. I do, at least in my mind, see a big difference between collecting a bit of seed compared to digging up an established plant.

[cactusjordi]

So do I.
And even collecting 2-3 plants for propagation and distribution isn't always bad though illegal now. In the 70s 3CN, Cold Climate Cactus Nursery in Germany, did so with Navajoa, Toumeya, Scleros and later distributed 100s of these species grafted on Opuntia fragilis resp. O. aurea worlwide (many also to the US with CITES documents) and several hundred seeds of each too.

Jordi

[Kelly Griffin]

Collection is not a bad thing nor is the discussion of habitats the problem lies with how people use the collection and the information that they get.

I have been asked numerous times about where plants occur and I must admit I feel mixed about telling where things are for obvious reasons. It is not likely that Agave albopilosa is going to sucumb to collectors because where it grows is so remote and really not accessable to even fit mountain goats. Someone selling seed is IMO not a bad thing and it should be said that it is being propagated and that is a great thing.

On the Ferocactus it looks like all the acanthodes that I have seen and not like the twisty spined baja one.