Adjuvants ... Surfactants and Penetrants.

[Allen Repashy]

Hey Everyone, I thought I would start a thread on Adjuvants/Surfactants here as I have been doing a little research on the subject. I found couple good articles I thought I would share that gives a good schooling on the subject.

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/FreePubs/pdfs/uo202.pdf

http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubs/PDF/B1319.pdf

Anyone have any experience using them with pesticides vs. herbicides vs miticides?

[Matt Maggio]

Very informative articles. I've been currently using Target Pro Spreader and Scotts' Capsil, with Alkyl phenol ethoxylate and an organosilicon, respectively. Both are nonionic, and have used them with insecticides and miticides. I've had phytotoxicity with Orthene and Target Pro Spreader on cassulaceae, especially at temps over 90F.
Allen: you may be on to something with DMSO. There's doesn't seem to be much concrete literature linking DMSO to plant agriculture, but I did read that it is a preferred solvent for imidicloprid and some pyrethroids... and that the pharmaceutical grade is the best for this purpose. I also read that it's available at some feed stores. Have you seen it available anywhere?

[Allen Repashy]

Just got some more on ebay here!

Animal Legends DMSO Pure 99.85% Liquid - 1 gal - eBay (item 250513806502 end time Mar-12-10 20:24:06 PST)

The references I found included using it invitro at rates from 1%-3%..... I am playing around at the low end of the range right now. Some of the references say that the high end of the range might be more applicable for plants that are engineered to conserve moisture like succulents....which probably makes them resistant to the absorption of pesticides as in reduced trans-laminar penetration....

[Allen Repashy]

Of course I don't recommend anyone go out and start using this stuff. I am just one of those people who loves to experiment and find new things. DMSO is definitely some interesting stuff, and it got my curiosity going because of it's ability to cross tissue membranes.

Here is some more info on this stuff. There is a whole website on the stuff.

Pharmacology of DMSO

[rpw]

Originally Posted by Matt Maggio

I also read that it's available at some feed stores. Have you seen it available anywhere?

It should be readily available in stores catering to horse people, especially near racetracks...
Peyton

[Matt Maggio]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

Of course I don't recommend anyone go out and start using this stuff.

Pharmacology of DMSO

Point well taken. I hate having too many rules, but take it from an official QAC holder, we must be careful about recommending any pesticides/herbicides for commercial agricultural production on this forum. Technically, in California at least, this requires a written recommendation from a licesned Pest Control Adviser (PCA). It's best to say what "you" use and not what you should use. One could also get in trouble for recommending any chemical product for a use not listed on the product label. The only place you start encountering these rules is in a commercial setting. Technically, a nursery operator can get busted for using household bleach to sterilize pots, or using rubbing alcohol for pest control I admit I've done both... stay away Ag Department!

This DMSO has got me curious for another reason: It could assist a cure for the Agave/succulent monocot disorder. If one could help shuttle certain chemicals into the stomata guard cells, one may be able to control their behavior, and therefore control the ultimate problem. It is well documented that a plants pump potassium ions into guard cells during the process of stomata opening. Assuming closed stomata and internal pressure are part of the problem, could one apply a foliar spray to hijack the system and open the stomata on command? This could have devastating consequences for the plant, but it's worth a shot. One of my planned experiments calls for a foliar spray of pure potassium nitrate... and a combination of DSMO perhaps???. Unfortunately, if some odd cure is even pursued, it goes back to the legal problems stated above. Along those lines, I have NO desire to obtain EPA registration, or any other for obtaining a licensed product. I just like tinkering as well.

[Allen Repashy]

Yeah Matt, that sounds interesting......

Interesting also is that people are using DMSO homeopathicly to treat mineral deficiencies such as iron and iodine. They are mixing a tincture such a potassium iodide with DMSO and applying it to the skin.....

There seems to be a strong parallel between plant and animal tissue as far as how DMSO works to cross tissue membranes....... It would make sense that potassium nitrate would be absorbed in a similar manner.....

Succulents by nature, have evolved to limit transpiration to conserve water, so getting past this barrier seems to be the key...... I anticipate that by now you have probably already been to the Feed store, so let us know how it goes!......

Another thought is about the ability of Potassium to protect against cold..... If you could spray something like this (combined with a surfactant) that quickly penetrates tissue the evening of a hard frost or freeze, maybe you could use it as an emergency application to prevent damage.... something else to think about.

[Tim Harvey]

DMSO, if it does not kill cells, permeablizes in both directions of course, so will probably let things out. I would also question whether the test is physiologically relevant, since DMSO will have effects on cell membranes and integral membrane proteins like a potassium pump.

Now Allen, you have gone too far! Homeopathy?!?

T

[Allen Repashy]

LOL...... I said people are doing that.... not me! I do take a lot of vitamins, but that's about as far as homeopathy goes with me.

Reality is for people who can't handle drugs!

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

DMSO, if it does not kill cells, permeablizes in both directions of course, so will probably let things out. I would also question whether the test is physiologically relevant, since DMSO will have effects on cell membranes and integral membrane proteins like a potassium pump.T

Tim, That's what makes you a Scientist and me just a brainstormer LOL.... I don't even know WTF a Potassium Pump is!

YouTube - Sodium Potassium Pump

[Tim Harvey]

I'm a fan of Occam's razor, and KISS. Invoking molecular-level mechanisms for physiological phenomena invites trouble.

T

[Matt Maggio]

You need to post that video on FB... I'm certain others would be enthralled
I remember that potassium aids plants in converting harmful free radicals formed from incomplete photosynthesis, during cold weather. I may have seen damage like this on some succulents, where the leaf never really froze, but strange discolorations and mottling appeared after the episode... on no! Have we stumbled on another theory for Agave enigma? Free radicals from incomplete photosynthesis?? How's about another KNO3 experiment?

I think Tim could be right about DMSO. The KNO3 with DMSO, even high enough concentrations of KNO3 alone, could induce plasmolysis in the cells. If anything positive does result, it may be from DMSO alone... possibly allowing cells to release some internal pressure. If excess internal CO2 is the problem, more permeability and diffusion of gas aside from the stomata should be expected. But what's the residual effect of the treatment? Let's try it anyway. What's the worst that could happen... a few dead plants?

[Matt Maggio]

Just an update on DMSO

Never let this stuff come into contact with rubber, except maybe the nitrile or butyl types. I took my chances and just wrecked a brand new spray bottle:mad. The pump mechanism went out after just 15 minutes of use! The dilution rate was 1 oz./gallon. A similar thing happened to an old spray bottle a couple of months ago when using this stuff, but I had attributed it to something else. Now I'm certain... live and learn

Also, I've tested this stuff on various plants and am noticing that it is interfering with cuticle formation on the new growth of some aloes... nothing appears serious yet... just a little bizarre.

Be cautious with this stuff.

Matt

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Matt Maggio

Be cautious with this stuff.

Matt

Yeah, it tastes pretty funny too... and makes you smell like garlic.

I have been using it at 10ml/liter with the Forbid and it really seems to be knocking back the Agave mite... not sure if the dmso has anyting to do with it working or not though......

[Tim Harvey]

The DMSO will help with penetration (don't get any ideas!) of the leaf surface, at the same time dissolving any plastic equipment. There's a reason why it is shipped in glass bottles, and chemists prefer it as a solvent for organic compounds.

T

[Matt Maggio]

... no ideas about "plastic equipment" either

I used Forbid in conjunction with DMSO as well... on some of the aforementioned aloes. The aloe mite is quashed for now, but the cuticle has been altered somewhat. No burning... but the waxy surface appears stripped and the leaves are changing shape slightly. Strangely, the new growth is emerging discolored as well. I still have to rule out the Forbid or a synergistic effect as causes.

Matt

[Ronald Chisum]

This forum is read internationally and not always by people with expertise in handling hazardous materials. DMSO can cary things through human skin with relative ease. Combining it with pesticides could create high risk situations that are unacceptably dangerous. It goes along well with the old sayIng, "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME". RON

[Matt Maggio]

Point well taken. All experience considered, be EXTREMELY cautious with this stuff.

[Boo Hollow]

To anyone whom is going to try the DMSO for treatment of their plants, be advised that your gloves need to be rated for this solvent - see the MSDS, that is increases the adsorption of any pesticide, herbicide or fungicide into human skin at an exceptionally fast rate and most of the chemical manufacturers have not tested the toxicity of the the respective chemical if used within a DMSO type solvent. Adsorption rate testing for accumulation or skin contact warnings on any product using DMSO shall be considered invalid information and extreme caution used. A lot of the neonictinoids and fungicide preparation are larger molecule formulas specifically to prevent adsorption through the skin of the applicator so that they can market the product as safer, greener and reduce the REI (Reentry Interval) after application. So if the product states the REI is 24 hours or more, then one should consider the risks of using the product with DMSO or contact the manufacturer. The Hazardous Materials group of my engineering firm have a great deal of experience with personnel exposure due to solvents interacting with poisons and the skin exposure and rapid uptake with resultant toxicity. BE WARNED.

[Matt Maggio]

I've made some big mistakes in life, this may be one of them...

I had alerted that my combined application of DMSO and Forbid 4F may have elicited bizarre phytotoxic effects on aloe. Evidence is mounting that the pesticide Forbid 4F itself may be toxic to some succulents, as apparent so far on some monocots. The active ingredient in Forbid 4F is Spiromesifen, a lipid synthesis inhibitor. The active ingredient is translaminar... meaning it moves into the plant through the cuticle, epidermis, and then can become transported through the phloem(systemic). This makes for an effective pesticide on hard-to-reach critters, such as the dreaded aloe mite. But it can also mean bad news if the compound disrupts plant growth in any way. Some herbicides are also lipid synthesis inhibitors, though I acknowledge that lipids is an umbrella term which accounts for many different types of lipids, with many different roles in plant physiology. The enzymes involved in their synthesis are also very specific to a certain kind of lipid, so specificity would be expected with the inhibitors that block a certain enzymatic pathways. Some lipids are vital in the formation of cuticle and cell membrane structures.

Spiromesifem is relatively new to the pesticide realm, compared to other modes of action that many of us are used to. Most pesticides kill by acute destruction to the chitin (think cuticle) in the bug's exoskeleton, by suffocation or by disrupting the nervous system in some way. Since plants 'feel no pain' - tell that to the ones that recently went in the garbage - most of the phytotoxic effects we're used to seeing are from acute damage to the plant's cuticle... mainly from the solvents and emulsifiers found in many common pesticides where the active ingredient is a nerve poison.

This however many be something new... where the active ingredient itself is a chronic culprit. Had this been acute damage to the cuticle, these aloe pillansii should have started outgrowing the damage by now, many months after the initial application... but the damage keeps manifesting in the new growth. Formation of new cuticle and cell structure is being disrupted, while the new leaves have become stiff and almost cemented together at the lower third. I also unpotted one of the damaged plants and found that new root growth looks discolored, distorted and is unusually brittle. Systemic products in the phloem can be transported back to the roots, and could be causing a response.

I tried to dig-up some literature that might help shed light on this matter. The first place to look was the specimen label...

From the specimen label:

Use of FORBID 4 F on ferns, English ivy (Hedera helix), lily-of-the-Incas
(Alstroemeria), Dracaena, Peperomia, croton, Cordyline, Mexican heather, fuschia, geraniums (Pelargonium spp.), Schefflera , and Impatiens spp. is not recommended.

Also, from the University of Minnesota Extension:

Fatty acid synthesis in plants is an essential process in the development of plant lipids that are required for cell membrane integrity and normal plant growth. The lipid synthesis inhibitor herbicides prevent the activity of acetyl-CoA carboxylase enzyme, which is involved in fatty acid biosynthesis (Figure 1). Broadleaf plants are tolerant to these herbicides; however, almost all perennial and annual grasses are susceptible. Herbicides in this family are taken up by foliage and are translocated via the phloem to areas of new growth. Injury symptoms are slow to occur (7 to 14 days) and first appear on new leaves emerging from the whorl of the grass plant.

I feel compelled to write this detailed post after visiting Tim Harvey's place just yesterday. He has two Aloe pillansii which were also sprayed with Forbid 4F , and no DMSO. The plants are showing the same symptoms without question... most of the newly emerged leaves on one had been killed while many newly emerging leaves on the other were deformed and cemented together. This pesticide has demonstrated excellent effectiveness on Aloe and Agave mite mite, but ironically and tragically, seems to create a similar end result. If I've ever held this product as a silver bullet for these pests, I throttle back on my statements. I know there are others on this forum who have this product. Please don't do as I had done and spray your valuable succulents with this stuff... test it on something else first. If we gather further observations on aloes, agaves and additional taxons in favor of this post, then I'll say this product shouldn't be used on succulents period. I was at my last straw with the mites and acted in a moment of irrationality

So, does it happen on Agave you may ask? Take a look at the following photos. I also noticed similar symptoms on the new growth of this Agave macroacantha, which I had soaked in Forbid. I had soaked about 30 pups of other agaves, and the only thing evident so far on some is a little discoloration. A factor here could be that the pups had been bareroot for a month prior to application (and therefore not in active growth for internal transport of the product). For the Aloes, the first picture shows normal growth, the others show the symptoms. I cross my fingers they grow out of it

[Allen Repashy]

Do you have pics of the Aloe's?

I have been using it on Agave for about six months with nothing but good results. We have also used it on many Aloe species and I haven't noticed anything there either..... maybe we aren't using it in the same concentration... I wonder what the difference is.. I would also like to hear Tim's experiences.

I also recently tested a group of Aloe and Agave with a treatment of Kontos which is listed as a systemic also.... they were treated on July 23rd and I don't see any ill effects...

[Matt Maggio]

Sorry everyone... most of my attached photos got cutoff somehow.

[Matt Maggio]

Allen - I was using it at 1ml/gallon.

[Allen Repashy]

Interesting pics.

It might be that the more glaucous and uniform leaves show the damage much more readily than other species with green or variable leaves. If you take away the color from those pics, it would be difficult to notice..... I have tried it on a lot of hybrid aloes that change color every day and are covered in textured surfaces.... so maybe I just haven't looked close enough. I would add also, that given they do grow out of it, I would rather deal with that than aloe mite if given a choice. So treating symptoms vs. preventative treatment might be the thing to do if nothing else works.

[Matt Maggio]

Aside from color, the strangest thing so far is that the leaves don't unfurl from the center whorl properly... and become "glued together" I'm confident they'll eventually grow out of it, but my concern in the long-run is that the trunks will form a weak-kink at that spot... or the apical meristems will die altogether... then I'll have to wait sometime for them to branch. In either case, the Aloe mite can return again in that time span. We'll have to observe and see, conduct more test sprays, and maybe play with the rate (never exceeding the highest on the label), but I'd be looking for other products in the meantime. Another one with good translaminar activity is Pylon (chlorfenapyr), but this is an ATP inhibitor (other potential problems in plants). I know they have been using Pylon at Rancho S. I'd be interested in observations of that chemical's effects as well.

I just procured a jug of super systemic Safari insecticide. Being a neonicotinoid, it's a nerve poison. It's not labeled for controlling mites, but I'll have to see if it controls them incidentally.