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Guerrilla Gardening To inspire people to improve their neighborhoods by planting out areas that need beautification. Be it greenbelt, or the neighbor who just lets his yard go. This forum is for people to share before and after photos, point out areas in need, donate plants for the cause..... Organize Recon Missions, Covert Ops, Challenges....

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  #26  
Old 12-14-2013, 07:36 PM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Talking Private Property

if snow leopards, rhinos, and daisy-faced sea anemones are being perpetuated in zoos; then that to me is a indication that some natural habitats are completely obliterated.

it's that massive suspension bridge and cities like Tokyo and the ISS that has me wondering about habitats.
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  #27  
Old 12-14-2013, 09:19 PM
xslinky@dishmail.net xslinky@dishmail.net is offline
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I find this thread interesting and entertaining (although in some cases too much so, as in over-the-top) with good and valid points being represented on both sides of the argument.

However, I think it would be helpful to remember that all the contributors on this thread LOVE plants, and that we all share that passion. We are NOT the enemies of each other!

Using the term "nazi" associated with plant lovers IS inappropriate. The term is vile, and recalls memories of heinous crimes against humanity. Seriously, by referencing that term in regards to anyone who chimed in on this thread, is that what you really mean? If so, you're sick...get some help. If not, find some other more calm way to get your point across. I can see the humor in Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi", and the point there is that it IS intended as humor. It's not at all funny or appropriate referenced against people who simply wish our natural settings remain so, as much as possible, of course discounting the power and effects of natural evolution. Evolution guarantees that all is in a constant state of flux, and change. Man's intervention, aside from the argument that Man is an animal (and I certainly wouldn't argue that several behave like some lower life forms on the evolutionary scale), is not what I would call "natural".

It seems to me the argument against planting invasive species in natural settings is pretty clear, as I interpreted it. I'm not seeing those people arguing against it taking it the extra mile and proposing how and what you plant in your OWN yard.

And, if you ask me, if it's cool to take a space which is a barren, a spoiled eye-sore (and I'm not talking about a natural ecosystem that just doesn't appeal to you) and make it more beautiful by planting whatever floats your boat, of course I could not oppose that. Or the planting of whatever exotic plants in YOUR OWN SPACE (your private property). Climate and prevailing natural forces will have the last say anyway on the survival, year over year, of your chosen exotics. Native species have already adapted to their indigenous habitats...

As far as the Guerrilla Gardening concept goes, as defined at the very top of this thread, how can anyone be opposed to that? (Read it AGAIN if you need a refresher!) Again, I would inject the caveat of not planting invasive species in natural habitat (which I assume as a given!). Who would object to the sight of beautiful plants (even if exotic) where barren, ugly, neglected space existed before?

I'm pretty sure that the specific argument against relates specifically to natural, indigenous habitat and the planting of exotic (specifically INVASIVE) species which would then also pose a threat to the survival of indigenous species.

Let's not take either argument to ridiculous extremes in either direction and please remember we are all here for the same reason. We love plants and we wish to share that with like-minded enthusiasts.

Keep it classy, my friends.
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2013, 05:25 AM
epiphyte epiphyte is offline
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My random ramble once again exceeded the character limit... We'll Make Great Plants

Personally I do find the term "native plant nazi" to be kinda funny. However, I fully agree that what the Nazis did was heinous. So how can we ensure that something like that never happens again? It's necessary for people to understand what's wrong with our current system...

Quote:
As was noted in Chapter 3, expressions of malice and/or envy no less than expressions of altruism are cheaper in the voting booth than in the market. A German voter who in 1933 cast a ballot for Hitler was able to indulge his antisemitic sentiments at much less cost than she would have borne by organizing a pogrom. - Geoffrey Brennan, Loren Lomasky, Democracy and Decision
Here's another way of putting it...

Quote:
If a woman told us that she loved flowers, and we saw that she forgot to water them, we would not believe in her "love" for flowers. Love is the active concern for the life and the growth of that which we love. Where this active concern is lacking, there is no love. - Erich Fromm, The Art of Loving
And another way...

Quote:
They will not indeed submit to more labours and privations than other people, for the relief of distressed fellow creatures: but they make amends by whining over them more. It is not difficult to trace this sort of affectation to its cause. It originates in the common practice of bestowing upon feelings that praise which actions alone can deserve. - J.S. Mill
And another way...

Quote:
Where your treasure is, there will be your heart also - Matthew 6:21
There's a difference between voting for more welfare...and actually writing a check to a welfare non-profit. There's a difference between voting for Hitler...and actually participating in a pogrom. There's a difference between saying that you love native plants...and actually participating in conservation efforts.

Therefore, all that's required to prevent future holocausts is to give people the opportunity to put their money where their mouths are. When confronted with the alternative uses of their own money...the vast majority of people will decide that they have more important things to spend their own money on. Unfortunately, tax choice only has 57 likes on facebook.

So it's one thing to say that the holocaust was horrible...and it's another thing to actually spend your own limited and valuable time studying how and why it occurred...and learning what we can do to ensure that it will never happen again.

Back to the issue of invasive plants...I think it stands to reason that introducing an exotic plant or animal into the wild doesn't guarantee that the outcome will be detrimental. I think the introduction can fall anywhere on a continuum from detrimental to beneficial.

Let's say for example that we release the orchid bee (Euglossa dilemma) into the wild here in Southern California. Where would the introduction fall on the benefit/harm continuum? If the bee only pollinated exotic orchids...then it would be hard to see the harm. If it pollinated native flowers as well...then perhaps it would harm native bees?

With flowers...I think the danger is always not enough pollinators. I don't think flowers will ever complain about there being too many pollinators. More pollinators means more seeds which means more plants which means more pollinators...

So it's one thing to say that we should maintain the current wilderness as it is for aesthetic reasons...and another thing to say that introducing any foreigner into the wilderness will harm the environment. The former is entirely subjective while the latter is entirely untrue. No environment is perfect... there's always room for improvement.

When I look at a naked tree...I see plenty of room for improvement. It might not be aesthetically pleasing for some...but epiphytes have positive externalities...they contribute to facilitation cascades...

Facilitation cascades 4 - application in New Zealand

Bladerunner is a great movie...but I'd much prefer it if Los Angeles in the future looked more like Avatar.
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  #29  
Old 12-15-2013, 12:44 PM
GermanStar GermanStar is offline
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Prozac. Does a body good.
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  #30  
Old 12-15-2013, 07:14 PM
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I did not coin the term Native Plant Nazi and it was used in jest. Chill out everyone. Im talking about planting Agave's in native areas on rock where not much else wants to grow. I LOVE all plants and all of you on this forum seriously! Its gonna happen either way, the debate has been fun and Epi is quite the orator. I will post pictures here when planting has happened. Slinky your in the Bay area right wanna help?

Last edited by mcgave; 12-15-2013 at 07:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #31  
Old 12-15-2013, 07:19 PM
GermanStar GermanStar is offline
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In general, I agree with the native plant strategy on public land, but I see no issue at all with what you're doing, since Agaves are unlikely to go native in your area, and no natives will grow in these areas anyway. Have fun!
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  #32  
Old 12-17-2013, 09:02 AM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default San Francisco

probably the nterest is the San Francisco Bay Area.

I saw the place as gritty as New Orleans. Especially Oakland.

when you showed me those sites, i'm thinking that it ain't gonna be easy. and i don't see what you are lacking up there on those hills.



my concern now is me doing Phonix. invisible is gonna do Phoenix.


Mat, if you want do that planting, do it. Me and Phonix. Ingonito for sure.
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  #33  
Old 12-17-2013, 02:47 PM
GermanStar GermanStar is offline
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^ Don't forget your green card.

Thought you didn't like cactus and Agaves. No Aeoniums here.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2013, 01:11 PM
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He's gonna cry when he sees the Desert Botanical Garden.
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  #35  
Old 12-18-2013, 05:13 PM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default Phoenix

The brutality of the gardening situation I am about to experience there is not a concern of mine. This is finally going to be a situation where I am going to enjoy the results of all that is there and done. A lot of history has been prepared there for my enjoyment.


What better place is there to end chasing the dragon?
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2013, 06:20 PM
GermanStar GermanStar is offline
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The dragon will not eat you, though he may warm your cockles with his fiery breath.
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2013, 08:59 PM
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GS, ever tried to grow an Aeonium? I have one going in Tucson for 3 years now...full shade in summer, full sun in winter, ~weekly water all year has worked for me with A. 'Sunburst'. I bet you could do it.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2013, 09:14 PM
GermanStar GermanStar is offline
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Tried 'em more than once -- all eaten. Javelinas climbed a 30" brick wall to get to 'em, trampling a lot of other stuff in the process. Wood rats don't mind 'em much either. Talk about defenseless.... Maybe if I had an alligator to stand guard...
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  #39  
Old 12-19-2013, 03:48 AM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default Phoenix

chasing the dragon can mean different things. with me, i have nothing else to do with gardening that will take another five years or so to prove.

being invisible and living incognito, i just don't see a more ideal place to lay that dragon to rest and say goodbye mother earth.

and Mat. you have my permission to sneak aeoniums in fountain hills.
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  #40  
Old 12-19-2013, 11:10 AM
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Phoenix is a confused place, but you may like it. Be sure to visit Boyce Thompson. And bring your dog.

Please don't feed the peccaries.
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  #41  
Old 02-11-2014, 02:11 AM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default Gardeners

Im thinking of places the Native garden nazis would be afraid to approach.

I would prefer to landscape the new upcoming Transit Center.
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  #42  
Old 02-11-2014, 02:53 AM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default gardeners

[QUOTE=mcgave;
Im thinking of places the Native garden nazis would be afraid to approach.



MCGAVE[/QUOTE]

I ain't afraid of the kandy kastle in burcly, high skool cids need enlightenment, too. ucb.
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  #43  
Old 02-11-2014, 07:18 PM
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The ground is finally ready for planting. Anyone interested in helping ?
Stan? Slinky?
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  #44  
Old 02-11-2014, 10:22 PM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default The City of Angels

i don't know about all that. but sixteen acres in LA is about to be . Stop. It's 32 acres..sheesh-...what the fuck is an enviromental study?

Is that like an approval to eat oatmeal cookies and ...
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2014, 10:47 AM
xslinky@dishmail.net xslinky@dishmail.net is offline
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Default Gorilla gardening

Real gorilla gardening

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  #46  
Old 03-28-2014, 06:46 AM
theinvisiblegardener theinvisiblegardener is offline
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Default Gorilla beningei

Native plants? Is it a tissue culture or a seed grown Basswood?
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  #47  
Old 10-18-2015, 11:01 PM
Tillandsia Tillandsia is offline
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That land is spectacularly wild already...not to mention in the boundaries of a national park. Not reccomended.
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  #48  
Old 10-20-2015, 02:58 PM
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I hadn't seen this before. I never knew I was mentioned. But,I have tried my own silverback gorilla native gardening. But what a older guy like me learned- even natives are far from a sure thing. I planted a few of our native Buckeye seeds- they look like Avocado pits- and the last one disappeared 3 years later. Even then,cows had twice cut it far back. The others I guess couldn't recover.

I hate cows and open parks.


In that same park I came across a non native pine or spruce 4' that somebody must have planted as a tribute. A few weeks later it was gone. Rangers keeping it native is my best guess. Planting for posterity sounds fun..but its not easy unless sanctioned.

From reading this topic,sanctioned would be no fun to some.
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