Calcium propionate

[Allen Repashy]

This might be a silly question, but I thought I would throw it out there and see if Tim, Matt, or someone up on the subject might be able to comment.

In one of my day jobs, I formulate pet feeds and supplements. I have been using Calcium Propionate (Calcium salt of Propionic Acid) as an ingredient for some of my products. I use it along with methyl paraben, and Potassium Sorbate (salt of soribic acid) and Citric Acid (to adjust PH) for the inhibition of rope bacteria, mold, and yeast in the formulas which are served mixed with water. I use the Citric Acid to adjust the PH of the final formula to around 5.0 because these acids work much better at a PH of 5.5 or below.

Calcium propionate is quite soluble in water (400 grams per liter) and about 23% calcium. A 1 mole solution contains approx 41 grams calcium per litre and a saturated solution would contain about 85 grams per liter. It costs about a dollar a pound in a #50 bag.

I do realize that Calcium Nitrate is a great source, but was just curious about the concept of using Calcium Propionate as a source of Calcium that would allow you to use it with a more readily available complete fertilizer formula since we don't seem to really want a lot of nitrogen. Using Calcium Nitrate in combination with most formulas gives us a more nitrogen than we want, so we have to use it with low nitrogen formulas, which are hard to find ..... or the possibility of it's use as an anti fungal.

The ability of it to retard mold and yeast (fungus) seems interesting. It is used in drosophila media at approx 5 grams/litre (.5%) and totally retards mold and rope bacteria growth for more than 30 days in a solution that is 80% sugars DMB...... I couldn't find anything on the web about it being used as fertilizer or an anti fungal.... but the concept is interesting to me and I wonder why I can't find any info on the concept, good or bad.

I know..... I probably have better things to think about LOL. I just like thinking outside the box.

Bueller?

[Ronald Chisum]

Calcium salts of organic acids might indeed work well in the alkaline water we get from the Colorado river. I suspect there would be more benifit from the improved Ph than from the calcium. ( For you non-chemistry majors, propionic acid is similar to acetic acid with an additional methyl group.) Some years ago I started adding a little vinigar (acetic acid) to my water-fertilizer mix with significant improvement in my plants. I use a little gypsum, oyster shell, and, in special occasions, bone meal in my planter mix. I mention these here with the hope for comments about how multiple experienced growers usually deal with calcium.

An interesting side note: In medicine we use calcium acetate to treat hyperphosphotemia in patients with kidney disease. The calcium binds with the phosphates in the diet to prevent the gi tract from absorbing them. Ron Chisum

[Matt Maggio]

I regularly use gypsum in my fresh mix, but it leaches pretty fast. That's okay because I have Plant Marvel's CalMag Special on hand. For some specialized plants I use roughly one cup per cubic foot of mix. This includes Agave utahensis and many Chihuahuan Desert plants, and I've had amazing results. Prilled dolomite sticks around longer, but unlike gypsum, will raise the pH. I see nothing hazardous with using Calcium propionate and would be interested in trying it, but gypsum is pretty cheap and effective. It goes directly into the mix and the calcium is spatially segregated from any acid injection... I use vinegar now. This other compound could bridge the gap...and maybe be more soluble.

I experienced first hand what happens when mixing calcium fertilizers with phosphate fertilizers... calcium phosphates at the bottom of my concentrate bucket. I must conduct my acid injection separately, or combined with just my phosphate fertilizer. Acid in the concentrate reservoir will make the precipitation problem much worse.

Matt

[Allen Repashy]

Calcium nitrate is the compound of choice in Calcium supplementation. But like you mention with the Calcium acetate, it doesn't play well with phosphates and you need to keep it in separate solutions to prevent precipitation. It needs to be rotated alternately with your phosphate containing formula, or mixed in diluted levels by using two tanks and two injectors so when they meet they are at a diluted feed strength.
.

[Allen Repashy]

It seems that Matt and I were posting at the same time so my post was a little redundant.
Matt, as you point out, in a perfect world, three tanks.... one for your main phosphate containing solution, One for Calcium and Magnesium, and one for Acid... I am going to try citric acid for my acid injection since I already use it for my feeds to adjust PH, it comes in a soluble powder form so you aren't paying for someone to deliver water.....

Now that I think about it..... I also use Potassium citrate in my feeds to deliver potassium (It is 32% potassium, 68% citric acid)..... hmmmm seems like an acidifying way to deliver potassium too maybe.....

[Matt Maggio]

Next thing I'll be seeing Repashy Superfoods at Grangetto's next to the Calcium nitrate... noticed your stuff the other day at LLL Reptile... sold my Pacman frog.

[Tim Harvey]

I'd caution against using any carbon sources - acetate, citrate - when fertilizing or amending water pH. Your local fungus and bacteria populations will be the main beneficiaries.

Propionate might kill plants the same way it does fungus and bacteria, so I would suggest testing with expendable plants first, for several months.

T

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

I'd caution against using any carbon sources - acetate, citrate - when fertilizing or amending water pH. Your local fungus and bacteria populations will be the main beneficiaries.

Propionate might kill plants the same way it does fungus and bacteria, so I would suggest testing with expendable plants first, for several months.

T

Hey Tim,

Can you elaborate on why carbon sourced acids would be different when it comes to fungus and bacteria than other types.

For those interested in learning a little about acids and their properties, I found a cool publication from one of my feed ingredient suppliers while looking into something other than citric acid for feeds today.

Self-Teaching Guide for Food Acidulants

It is a little on the technical side but REALLY informative.

From reading this, I might have a look at fumaric acid over citric acid if I go that route for my plants..... until Tim tells me why these acids are a bad idea for plants..... It seems at least that a lot of people use Acetic acid without problems, which is in the same class.

Allen

[Tim Harvey]

Basically, citrate and acetate are metabolic intermediates. Some organisms are able to use them directly as a food source similarly to the way they (and we) could use sugar. The majority of energy pathways are carbon-based, so it always pays to think twice about adding organic molecules to soils.

T

[jshields]

Tim covered it nicely (I'm a retired biochemist). I tried acidifying my irrigation water by adding sulfuric acid to the soluble fertilizer feed solution. I did not see any differences after using the acidified feed for several months. When I ran out of 2N sulfuric acid, I stopped adding it and haven't made up any more diluted sulfuric acid since. If pH had an effect, it was apparently minor compared to other things I may have been doing poorly. At any rate, the greenhouse is working quite well at the moment.

My well water contains plenty of calcium, with a pH above 8 as it comes out of the ground. I don't feel the need to add Ca, but I might need to add Mg. I have not had an analysis for the water that showed Mg amounts if any.

[Ronald Chisum]

High Ph can restrict absorption of multiple microneutrients, unless you use chelated supplements.

Hobyist who need a relatively small amount (2 to 5 lbs) of magnesium salts, should consider getting it at their local drug-store. Mag-sulphate (epsom salts) is usually available there and my local ag supply charges about 300% more than CVS or Walgreens. RON

[Matt Maggio]

Interesting... acetate can be produced through fermentation. Would it get further reduced by something else or converted back to an alcohol or sugar?

I wouldn't worry that much about an explosion of plant pathogens. I think most of the microorganisms that metabolize these compounds are quite specific, and aren't necessarily harmful pathogens. For example, there's a propionibacterium which can oxidize propionate into acetate. There's also Acetobacter responsible in acetate fermentation. Studies have found that Acetobacter is not harmful to plants.

Where does carbonic acid, that found in rain water fit in the picture?

[Tim Harvey]

Acetate is integral in the production of fatty acids via acetyl-coenzyme A synthetase.

These are VERY GENERAL metabolites!

Re-read the TCA cycle and see where citric acid (= "citrate" in solution) fits in, and think about the consequences of supplying it.

Carbonic acid is aqueous carbon dioxide, and so is ubiquitous.

The effects of watering in these compounds may not be immediately disasterous in Southern California, but this is not a local forum. Greenhouse culture is likely to exacerbate problems, so I encourage people to think carefully about such additives.

T

[Matt Maggio]

Oh crap So it can skip glycolosis altogether and go right to the TCA NADH ATP alphabet soup machine. I see how propionic and fumeric acids could contribute as well. So Pythium, Rhizoctonia, Phytophora, and the usual suspects could acquire them all in time. At least it should aid beneficial microbes as well, and hopefully not upset the balance too much. More caution will be taken.

[Turtile]

The relationship between certain fungi and a good portion of the plants discussed here are very important. Mycorrhizae (symbiotic fungi) help plants absorb nutrients and water when soil conditions are not ideal. If the pH or nutrient ability is not ideal or low, fungi can aid the plant in absorption.

[Tim Harvey]

Do you have any references to support that? I have often seen it claimed (almost like an urban legend), but never any proper studies using appropriate controls.

T

Originally Posted by Turtile

The relationship between certain fungi and a good portion of the plants discussed here are very important. Mycorrhizae (symbiotic fungi) help plants absorb nutrients and water when soil conditions are not ideal. If the pH or nutrient ability is not ideal or low, fungi can aid the plant in absorption.

[jshields]

I think that where you are growing also should make a difference. I doubt that symbiotic fungi are as easy to grow in containers as they would be in the ground, but this is just a feeling. I have no data one way or the other. I would be most interested in learning what is in the literature on this subject.

Jim Shields

[Turtile]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

Do you have any references to support that? I have often seen it claimed (almost like an urban legend), but never any proper studies using appropriate controls.

T

A quick search with Google Scholar will give you thousands of studies:
mycorrhizae - Google Scholar

You're not going to find many if at all on ornamental plants since there isn't enough interest or money for research funding. The rhizosphere (soil) is very complex and not very well understood. This is especially true when you take plants from native habitat with different soil properties (pH, texture, soil organisms, climate, weather...) and grow it in a new soil across the earth. I could get great results where I tested the plant while you may not see any difference.

You can see how it is impossible to quantify the positive effects mycorrhizae have on certain plants. It's a known fact that almost all plants form symbiotic relationships with fungi.

Originally Posted by Jsheilds

I think that where you are growing also should make a difference. I doubt that symbiotic fungi are as easy to grow in containers as they would be in the ground, but this is just a feeling. I have no data one way or the other. I would be most interested in learning what is in the literature on this subject.

Yes, each plant is different - and you could only imagine the amount of symbiotic fungi that exist. Unless you are testing for cultivation within a pot, tests done in containers would be useless for the real world if you chose this method to study the interaction.

[jshields]

The thing is, here in Indiana we grow most of these things in pots or not at all. Some cacti and most Sempervivums are hardy outdoors in the ground. Everything else needs to go inside in winter, so containers are a given.

Jim Shields

[Tim Harvey]

Well I see lots of papers saying that fungi grow in soil with plant roots. I do not doubt that. Not sure I see controlled trials anywhere.

My skepticism remains ...

T

[Turtile]

Originally Posted by Tim Harvey

Well I see lots of papers saying that fungi grow in soil with plant roots. I do not doubt that. Not sure I see controlled trials anywhere.

My skepticism remains ...

T

The link I posted only deals with mycorrhizae which are a group of symbiotic fungi. Of course there are many other types of fungi that live in the rhizosphere. It is a documented fact that symbiotic fungi are vital for a few plants to thrive under stressful conditions.

Here is something that may interest you:
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/gabor/gabordesert.pdf

[Shmuel]

This is an amazing topic. If you google for the 2 words: mycorrhizae cactus a bunch of stues will come up, including some on inoculation of soil...
Fascinating stuff.

Shmuel

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by Matt Maggio

I regularly use gypsum in my fresh mix, but it leaches pretty fast.

Matt

Matt - Is the gypsum really leaching or just dissociating as it interacts with the clay particles? I would perceive leaching as passing through the soil media to another soil zone or horizon. Do you see much of a pH shift?

[Boo Hollow]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

This might be a silly question, but I thought I would throw it out there and see if Tim, Matt, or someone up on the subject might be able to comment.

In one of my day jobs, I formulate pet feeds and supplements. I have been using Calcium Propionate (Calcium salt of Propionic Acid) as an ingredient for some of my products. I use it along with methyl paraben, and Potassium Sorbate (salt of soribic acid) and Citric Acid (to adjust PH) for the inhibition of rope bacteria, mold, and yeast in the formulas which are served mixed with water. I use the Citric Acid to adjust the PH of the final formula to around 5.0 because these acids work much better at a PH of 5.5 or below.

Calcium propionate is quite soluble in water (400 grams per liter) and about 23% calcium. A 1 mole solution contains approx 41 grams calcium per litre and a saturated solution would contain about 85 grams per liter. It costs about a dollar a pound in a #50 bag.

I do realize that Calcium Nitrate is a great source, but was just curious about the concept of using Calcium Propionate as a source of Calcium that would allow you to use it with a more readily available complete fertilizer formula since we don't seem to really want a lot of nitrogen. Using Calcium Nitrate in combination with most formulas gives us a more nitrogen than we want, so we have to use it with low nitrogen formulas, which are hard to find ..... or the possibility of it's use as an anti fungal.

The ability of it to retard mold and yeast (fungus) seems interesting. It is used in drosophila media at approx 5 grams/litre (.5%) and totally retards mold and rope bacteria growth for more than 30 days in a solution that is 80% sugars DMB...... I couldn't find anything on the web about it being used as fertilizer or an anti fungal.... but the concept is interesting to me and I wonder why I can't find any info on the concept, good or bad.

I know..... I probably have better things to think about LOL. I just like thinking outside the box.

Bueller?

Allen - Funny thing is when I started using Reptavite for my Sansevierias, they started basking more, demanded mealworms and started flashing warning colors.